The Craftsman versus the Industrial Complex

[DWFII]

More stock tartans in PV material.

16 oz (QUALITY) PV cloth from MM, not just their 11 - 12 oz stuff.

A stronger market for traditional wool material (kilts and cloth alone) so that mills would remain self sufficient.



After re-reading this post... it sounds more like my Christmas list.

No offense (wishful thinking I'm sure) but isn't there a contradiction there? People want more PV, or buy/wear MUGs in preference to traditional wool kilts...and then wonder why the woolen mills are going tips up?

We see this all the time with shoes. People cry for quality shoes but buy "affordable" (read under $200.00) and then can't figure out why they fall apart.

Might as well be wishing for the moon.

[RockyR]

No offense (wishful thinking I'm sure) but isn't there a contradiction there? People want more PV, or buy/wear MUGs in preference to traditional wool kilts...and then wonder why the woolen mills are going tips up?

We see this all the time with shoes. People cry for quality shoes but buy "affordable" (read under $200.00) and then can't figure out why they fall apart.

Might as well be wishing for the moon.

No... it's not a contradiction.

There are 2 'schools of thought' on the issue.

1. There are those who think, as you do, 'budget kilts will kill the traditional kilt market'. (poor investment of funds, rising material costs, and 'cheap' customers are much bigger factors)

2. There are others who think 'Budget kilts are a gateway to buying a nice wool kilt'.

In my experience (being a kilt maker and retailer of BOTH Budget kilts AND wool kilts), the latter is more true. The majority of the people who come into my store have an idea about how much they want to spend. If that number is $100 - $200 or so, then they would walk out if I didn't have anything in their price range. It's almost impossible to get someone who only wants to spend $100 - $200 to re-evaluate finances (in a poor economic climate) and spend $500 on an 8 Yard traditional kilt. Are there those who come in looking for a $320 or $500 wool kilt and walk out with a less expensive model JUST b/c it's cheaper? I can probably count those instances (in 8 years of business) on one hand.

Also, many customers own more than 1 kilt for different scenarios. Would you wear an 8 Yard family heir loom to mow the grass or go to a pub or a rugby match? No. That's another reason to invest in a low priced alternative. Does that preclude you from owning a nice wool kilt for formal events? No... those kilts are generally reserved for instances where there's less chance of 'destruction'.

What I have also found is that we have MANY repeat customers who 'climb the ladder' to nicer and nicer models. They start out with a budget kilt, find out they like wearing a kilt and THEN invest more in a wool kilt. If there were NO 'low priced alternatives' to wool kilts, a large percentage of my customers would never own a nice wool kilt... or any kilt at all for that matter. THEN the tradition of kilts in general would start to decline.

[DWFII]

No... it's not a contradiction.

There are 2 'schools of thought' on the issue.

1. There are those who think, as you do, 'budget kilts will kill the traditional kilt market'. (poor investment of funds, rising material costs, and 'cheap' customers are much bigger factors)

2. There are others who think 'Budget kilts are a gateway to buying a nice wool kilt'.

I don't doubt that budget kilts can be a gateway. But I can tell you from forty years of experience and a library full of books on the subject that there are not "2 schools of thought". Or if there are it makes no difference to the ultimate outcome.

Your customers represent only a subset of the necessary demand to keep a woolen mill in business. And of your customers, the ones who upgrade are only a smaller sub-set.

What's more, again drawing from an industry wide experience, as well as comments made on this forum and others, most people won't upgrade. Perhaps they start out determined to buy a better kilt next time. But in fact, I suspect that fully 80% of those will eventually abandon kilt wearing altogether or justify the wearing of MUGs as a "living tradition" or an "evolution" of kilt traditions or simply as "affordable."

The fact is that out and abroad, to the extent that PV has become more prevalent...in suits, kilts, all sorts of stuff, woolen mills have lost business.

Mind you, I wouldn't mind a 16 or 18 ounce PV or PV/wool mix kilt in MacQueen, myownself..

But there's more to it than just the shrinking demand. What happens to all the skilled weavers who know how to set up a loom for wool? Or the dyers? Or the people who bring unique skills to the making of Traditional wool kilts?

They get laid off, that's what. And once they are gone those skills and that knowledge never come back...or only with the greatest of difficulty.

I saw a post...didn't read it...saying that Locharran had been sold to Koreans.

What do you think they wanted it for? To put traditional tartan kilts on Koreans? Or for its money making abilities?

Sure, they'll run it with the current staff...for a while. And then the economies of scale will kick in and more and more of the process will be mechanized and dumbed down. PV will become the staple fabric within a generation...we'll all have our 16 ounce poly viscose kilts in a plethora of tartans. For a while. And then perhaps acrylic will be introduced or more obscure tartans will be dropped from the line. What cultural connections do the Korean owners have with the Traditional and history of Scotland?

Locharran is a cash-cow that will be milked until dry ...just like so many other great Traditional industries. The Koreans aren't doing anything that the Chinese aren't doing. That American aren't doing.

And to the extent that woolen mills remain in the hands of their Traditional owners/cultures and follow traditional practices, the price will skyrocket. As it has been doing.

Where's the gateway then?

Once upon a time bespoke, handmade shoes were the only available option. And were, within reason, affordable to all but the poorest. Today bespoke handmade shoes can easily top $1200.00 and many will go in the $5k-$6k range. Yet it is only at that price point that traditional quality...devoid of synthetics, cardboard and expediencies...and anything resembling a true fit, can be had.

It's a brave new world.

[tripleblessed]

I wanted to quote two of DWFII's posts here, but don't know how to do multiple quotes.

First, *** on the thinking of people that want cheap stuff and then complain about it being cheap. No coincidence a certain Arkansas family has multiple listings in the list of wealthiest Americans. Strong connection, too with a well-known statement of an iconic American showman about frequency of births of his customers.

Second, on "gateway kilts"; reading the posts here carefully, they seem to support Rocky's position. Repeatedly you see people say they never thought they had any interest in a tank, but having bought a MUG they talked to other wearers, tried a wool kilt, and now it's their favorite, and what they want more of in their closet.

Good point about subsets of subsets. Broader market needed, fer sher.

[RockyR]

EDIT... I just re-read my post after posting it. Mods, if this has gone too far OT, then please feel free to remove or start a new thread.



I don't think I need to state the obvious, but I disagree with much of what you've stated here. However, this is what makes forums so valuable... when people can differ openly and remain civil about it.

As a business owner and kilt maker I can only state the industry trends that I see within my own business and through the network of manufacturers (in Scotland) and other kilt makers (both in America and Scotland) and business owners I speak to. I'm not sure where your experience on the matter lies, but these are mine.

I don't doubt that budget kilts can be a gateway. But I can tell you from forty years of experience and a library full of books on the subject that there are not "2 schools of thought". Or if there are it makes no difference to the ultimate outcome.

I don't think that cheaper cars will ever completely destroy the desire (and market) for high end vehicles. Similarly, I don't see less expensive kilts ever completely destroying the need for high end kilts. Would high end kilts be more plentiful if there were NO kilts under $500? Maybe. However, I would also estimate that without a counter weight of low priced alternatives, the price of wool kilts might have risen steadily without being checked.

Your customers represent only a subset of the necessary demand to keep a woolen mill in business. And of your customers, the ones who upgrade are only a smaller sub-set.

What's more, again drawing from an industry wide experience, as well as comments made on this forum and others, most people won't upgrade. Perhaps they start out determined to buy a better kilt next time. But in fact, I suspect that fully 80% of those will eventually abandon kilt wearing altogether or justify the wearing of MUGs as a "living tradition" or an "evolution" of kilt traditions or simply as "affordable."

I would completely agree. My business is not the only one making kilts and I would not be able to support a mill by myself. That being said, I do speak with many of the manufacturers and other kilt makers to get a sense of where they think the industry is at, is going, is having trouble, is experiencing growth, etc. You'd be shocked what some people will tell you by asking questions.

Our repeat business (who upgrade) and new customers who have bought budget kilts elsewhere and then come to us for a wool kilt may actually surprise you. While I'm not going to go over my company's 'sales figures' publicly, I will say it's a higher number than most people realize. We actively explain the differences in fabric qualities and promote wool as "the best" fabric for a kilt to be made from.

The fact is that out and abroad, to the extent that PV has become more prevalent...in suits, kilts, all sorts of stuff, woolen mills have lost business.

Mind you, I wouldn't mind a 16 or 18 ounce PV or PV/wool mix kilt in MacQueen, myownself..

Yes, PV fabric (and other fabrics) have become alternatives in many respects. What will happen to the woolen mills? They can weave other types of fabric in addition to wool. House of Edgar's MAIN business is weaving upholstery grade fabrics. Kilt tartans are just a fraction of their business. Marton Mills weaves both PV AND wool for kilts as well as dozens of other qualities of fabrics.

There's nothing to say a woolen mill can ONLY produce wool cloth.

But there's more to it than just the shrinking demand. What happens to all the skilled weavers who know how to set up a loom for wool? Or the dyers? Or the people who bring unique skills to the making of Traditional wool kilts?

They get laid off, that's what. And once they are gone those skills and that knowledge never come back...or only with the greatest of difficulty.

If they weave other cloth and find other markets, they won't 'get laid off'. They'll learn a different market. The heads of the mills have to diversify, not just do one thing and collapse if/when it becomes outdated.

The mills (even ones that have / had trouble) have tried to do that... knitwear, fashion textiles, etc. Not all of it works, but diversity is how you survive a slumping market.

I worked for a company called 'Blades, Board & Skate' as a retail store manager for a period. Their model worked for a while b/c if Skateboards declined in popularity, Rollerblades and Snowboards would carry them. If Rollerblades declined, Skateboards and Snowboards would. Where they ran into trouble was when Rollerblades and Skateboards declined in 2002 - 2003 and Snowboards stagnated (and they couldn't pay bills and went bankrupt).

I saw a post...didn't read it...saying that Locharran had been sold to Koreans.

What do you think they wanted it for? To put traditional tartan kilts on Koreans? Or for its money making abilities?

Sure, they'll run it with the current staff...for a while. And then the economies of scale will kick in and more and more of the process will be mechanized and dumbed down. PV will become the staple fabric within a generation...we'll all have our 16 ounce poly viscose kilts in a plethora of tartans. For a while. And then perhaps acrylic will be introduced or more obscure tartans will be dropped from the line. What cultural connections do the Korean owners have with the Traditional and history of Scotland?

Locharran is a cash-cow that will be milked until dry ...just like so many other great Traditional industries. The Koreans aren't doing anything that the Chinese aren't doing. That American aren't doing.

As many processes that CAN be mechanized ARE. There's little to no 'economies of scale' in this instance as Lochcarron is one of the 2 largest tartan weavers by far. The same Korean company also bought (a year or two back from my understanding) a Scottish Knitwear company (and I don't believe there have been major layoffs). They are investing in Scottish made goods. What are their intentions for the long term? No way to tell unless you're them, so I won't speculate.

PV will not replace wool as it's not a replacement FOR wool. It's the 'best alternative' in my estimation, but it is by no means a replacement. Wool kilts will still exist and will still continue to be made so long as people want them. May the price go up? Yes, but that wouldn't simply be attributed to PV 'taking over'. It's much more complex an issue and for that, you'll have to look at the world market for woolen goods.

And to the extent that woolen mills remain in the hands of their Traditional owners/cultures and follow traditional practices, the price will skyrocket. As it has been doing.

Again, that's due to raw wool prices increasing 30% in a year and increased demand in China. I'm not on the 'blame China' crowd... but when a nation of over a billion people decide they like wool products and start purchasing, that has a ripple effect.

BTW... the same is true for MANY raw materials, not just wool. Pewter is up something like 25% in a couple years. Cotton prices are skyrocketing. Silver and gold are at all time highs.

Where's the gateway then?

Still PV and other low priced kilts.

Once upon a time bespoke, handmade shoes were the only available option. And were, within reason, affordable to all but the poorest. Today bespoke handmade shoes can easily top $1200.00 and many will go in the $5k-$6k range. Yet it is only at that price point that traditional quality...devoid of synthetics, cardboard and expediencies...and anything resembling a true fit, can be had.

It's a brave new world.

"Old World" craftsmanship is a dying art in most industries, yet there will always be a demand, even at over inflated prices (which is the scenario you painted above). If you want custom made items and high quality items, they are going to cost more than similar items at Walmart.

I don't shop at Walmart for that reason. I only buy UK, US and Canadian made 'kilt related' products for that reason ("Celtic products made by Celtic artisans"). In my personal (non kilt related) life, I try to buy at 'mom and pop' shops and I do proudly 'buy American' as much as possible. If you want to change the world, start with the man in the mirror.

Again, these are just my observations and opinions based on my experience in this market. I hope this was able to shed some light for some people. Others may disagree and their mileage may vary, and that's fine too.

[MacBean]

I don't shop at Walmart for that reason. I only buy UK, US and Canadian made 'kilt related' products for that reason ("Celtic products made by Celtic artisans"). In my personal (non kilt related) life, I try to buy at 'mom and pop' shops and I do proudly 'buy American' as much as possible. If you want to change the world, start with the man in the mirror.

Have to agree with you entirely Rocky. I definitely upgraded as I purchased kilts, though all of them were wool. I have a solution to retaining "mom and pop" stores: pass a law requiring store owners to live within a certain radius of their store (but I'm not a lawyer). Each community could then choose what kind of shopping they offer (cheap mega stores, or friendly small stores)

[DWFII]

"Old World" craftsmanship is a dying art in most industries, yet there will always be a demand, even at over inflated prices (which is the scenario you painted above). If you want custom made items and high quality items, they are going to cost more than similar items at Walmart.


Again, these are just my observations and opinions based on my experience in this market. I hope this was able to shed some light for some people. Others may disagree and their mileage may vary, and that's fine too.

Rocky,

I can't speak to your business...I'm not even going to try.

But aside from the fact that we are never going to agree on this...simply because I am a firm opponent (if that's the right word) of what I call the "factory mentality" that permeates every nook and cranny of our daily lives--from the food industry to the entertainment industry to our attention spans (144 character limit, please) to the way in which we prioritize every aspect of our personal lives for efficiency and not quality or human connections or just the pleasure of being alive.

Aside from all that, I can tell you that I am not seeing what you are seeing in clothing or shoes. And I not only have been at it for 40+ years I have, as mentioned, a pretty comprehensive understanding of where the shoe Trade/industry came from and where it seems to be going.

And everything I've seen underscores the similarity between Traditional kilts and Traditional shoemaking.

Forty years ago there were six companies in the continental USA that made lasts. Today there is one. Forty years ago there were any number of skilled model makers--the guys that hand carve last from which the machines turn sizes. I don't know of more than two or three still alive. Who will create the next generation of lasts? Who cares?

Right after WWI there were any number of Irish Linen mills spinning long staple linen yarn--used both in fabric and in shoemaking. Last year the last one of those mills closed. Who could re-establish that industry?

After WWII were a number of sources in the US and abroad where you could buy the kind of pitch and rosin that was used during the days of sailing ships to preserve and waterproof rope, as well as for making threads to sew shoes together. Also as a matrix for mounting pieces to do engraving on silver and steel or the polishing of optical lenses. Rausch Naval Yards in Louisiana was one of them. Gone. Gone for good...all of them.

Two years ago the last major "grindery"--maker of hand tools for the shoe Trade and assorted other industries--went down.

Tanneries are getting thin on the ground since I began my career, with major tanneries in the US and Europe...especially those who utilize natural, environmentally friendly tanning agents such as tree bark...closing down in the face of competition from tanneries using synthetic tanning chemical and even "faux" leathers. Of course quality takes time...up to a year in the pits for natural bark tanned outsoling compared to weeks for synthetic. Nevermind that the pit tanned leather is objectively superior in every way.

And the result is a flood of shoes that are made of plastic and cardboard...even from companies that once were very high end, high quality.

Of course that's another significant aspect of all this--once a company cuts quality in favor of quantity; once increasing the profit margin becomes "job one" rather than making a quality product; that company can never reverse the process.

The skilled workers aren't there--dead... with, irony of ironies, never having passed their Traditional skills and knowledge on to the next generation.

The tools aren't there.

The linen isn't there.

The wax isn't there.

The leather isn't there.

And if the quality isn't there and the next generation grows up not knowing what quality is, then the demand isn't there.

You don't see it. And....sincerely, no offense...I suspect you never will even though it is happening in the same way and at the same pace in the clothing world. I suspect our perspectives are just 180 degrees from each other and maybe even 180 degrees from what is needed to recognize the value of, and save, those traditional endeavours that formed, and informed, cultures, societies, and our lives.

I might ask/add in passing that if you had 40 years and 80 plus hours into hand carving a pair of matching bespoke lasts and the hard physical labour of making a pair of shoes ...as well as $200-$300.00 in the basic materials... what would you feel was a fair price for a pair of shoes?

Parenthetically, the next time you buy that "reasonably" priced pair of shoes for $80.00 or that shirt for $10.00, the suit for $100.00, bear in mind what my old business adviser told me--any manufactured product has to charge five to ten times the cost of raw materials to make a profit. (that may even be low these days). So the cost to make the shoes was $8.00.

You can't buy a pair of cheap leather soles for that. Can't even get close for good quality pit-tanned outsoles.

I'm not even gonna speculate on what the cost of raw materials for a PV or canvas garment is (bifurcated or not) .

But one has to ask...what corners are being cut to make a whole shoe for less than $8.00...nevermind what it's selling for?

[RockyR]

SNIP...

But aside from the fact that we are never going to agree on this...

You don't see it. And....sincerely, no offense...I suspect you never will even though it is happening in the same way and at the same pace in the clothing world.

Agreed. I don't see it as I disagree with your fundamental premise. Shoes (with few cultural exceptions) in this day and age are pretty much considered 'necessity items' for all people. Kilts are not. They are a niche market. Until they ARE 'main stream' and readily available in Walmart and other cheap stores and every person must have one, they can not be thought of the same way... the parallel is just not there. Is it there for the MAJORITY of the clothing industry? Perhaps, but not for kilts. If they were 'main stream clothing items' like tshirts and jeans, then, at that point, MAYBE, kilts would start to go down the same path.

As we are pretty far O/T here and we've agreed to disagree, I don't want to veer any further down this tangent. Agreed?

[Moski]

Once upon a time bespoke, handmade shoes were the only available option. And were, within reason, affordable to all but the poorest. Today bespoke handmade shoes can easily top $1200.00 and many will go in the $5k-$6k range. Yet it is only at that price point that traditional quality...devoid of synthetics, cardboard and expediencies...and anything resembling a true fit, can be had.

The problem I see with that model is this. You are Starting at a stratospheric level in pricing. I've no practical use for shoes at that price. Ive never owned a pair of shoes costing over $150 (excepting some Alligator western boots), forget bespoke shoes. The ones I have owned have served me well, and lasted long. For far less than the numbers you posted. In the same manner, having items at the Average Joe price levels makes them available to a larger crowd. I started with an X-Kilt $22, then I got an Amerikilt $95, and tomorrow I close a deal that will open my way into a USAK semi-trad. If I had to start at a $4-5-600 kilt I wouldn't own a one, I don't go anywhere to justify that money. Really, even $200 on a single clothing item is spendy in my house. I'll likely never own a PC, or Brouges or a big hairy sporran and I aint gonna miss 'em.

I own a Ford F250SD. It's not a Bently or some other hand made Automobile. It works for me. It does what i need it to. And I like it. People will buy what they can afford, esp in this economy. Businesses rise and fall with the markets all the time. It's not the fault or responsibility of people seeking what they see as value. There are fewer craftsmen across the board than there were in the past, and yes, most were simply priced out of business. Been happening more or less since the Industrial Revolution. And the future aint bright for a comeback. Not for most. For the rest it's Adapt or Dodo.

As far as Tradition Vs Orthodoxy, I'm a member of the Traditional "kilt as current clothing" crowd, as opposed to the Historical "kilt defined by narrow slice of Time" crowd. I expect my clothing to mate well with my intended use (every day kicking around) and so do others. Things happening "now" are surely fashions. They may well enter the tradition through continued use over time. Some of the things viewed as Traditional were once blasphemous fads or fashions at their advent. I mean really, everyone didn't suddenly start wearing Jabots and Cuffs out of nowhere, and I'm having trouble seeing a greengrocer at market wearing them. And there are those here who can tell you pretty closely the origin of the PC.

[DWFII]

I never said it would look good, simply possible. I fear seeing anything printed on something looser than T-shirt material or flanel...

(Low) Price
Quality
Service (speed)
Pick any 2.

Now look what you've done!! Now you've made printed tartan kilts inevitable.

PS...service is not equivalent to speed.