Brass Cantled Sporrans - Need Historical Guidance

[ThistleDown]

5 more sporrans.

Ah, so we are back to the OP Good.

[figheadair]

Here are five more examples of brass cantled sporrans. all from the west Highland Museum in Fort William.

No1 - Campbell of Glenorchy's (he of the Glencoe massacre) sporran. I guess this must daye to c1700 and so is perhaps the oldest example we have. Appears to have a cow hide bag.



No2



No3



No4



No5 - Rob Roy's Cantle. Interesting celtic marking. This one seems to be of a much higher quality that the others.



Given the incorrect labelling on a number of pieces in the Museum (they are often labelled as they were donated)I have reservations about the attribution of Nos 1 & 5.

[hylander]

Intriguing detail on N0.2 sporran, the center tassel is a single piece of leather which was split where it enters the sporran. Is this functional, does it keep the sporran closed, or is it purely decorative?

Thanks for the pics! Love seeing original oldies.

[figheadair]

Intriguing detail on N0.2 sporran, the center tassel is a single piece of leather which was split where it enters the sporran. Is this functional, does it keep the sporran closed, or is it purely decorative?

Thanks for the pics! Love seeing original oldies.

Certainly nothing to do with the closure mechanism of this type of sporran. Purely decorative I suspect. Cf my sporran in post #36 which is similar.

[figheadair]

I came across this cantle last week. It is part of Regency era sporran but the cantle is clearly much older and was re-used. It has some interesting features that I thought others would be interested to see and may have some thoughts on.



The original stitching holes have been used, and perhaps added to, for riviting the later bag to the cantle. The cantle opens and fastens in the same way as mine - see post #36 but the catch is pulled rather than pushed to open. What intrigues me is the additional catch on the upper right piece. It is clearly contemporary with the rest of the cantle and moves in a short left-right direction. The other side is clearly visable on the left of the cantle front - below.



I'm wondering if this might have been some sort of secondary lock, not that I can see the need as the opening/closing catch is still very firm. Thoughts?

There are a couple of additional features of interest in this cantle. Firstly, the front decoration is fairly simple and doesn't include the concentic circles so often seen on old cantles. The top of the cantle on the other hand is richly decorated with a celtic knot type pattern. Secondly, below the hole on the right hand side can be seen the numbers 172. Again, these look to be contemporary with the sporran. One could speculate that this was intented to be the date. Clearly a number is missing but I cannot think of what else it could be. Could the ten have been assumed at that period and thus 172 equals 1720.

A beautiful and intreging piece.

[artificer]

Very cool find. Thank you for posting this.

I've seen several cantles with 'multi-stage' or trick locks. This is the first I've seen with what appears to be part of the lock-works on the face of the cantle.

The 'technical' drawing in Downunder Kilt's post #22 shows two cantles with fairly intricate lock mechanisms.

I think I may attempt a trick lock on one of the cantles I'm hoping to make HERE. This definitely give me some more to go on.

As to the holes in the face;
The larger hole appears to be a mount for another part of the lock. If you look at the 'lever arm' that backs the sliding stud and the larger hole, you can see a hole in it right where the missing 'stud' might be. It probably served as the pivot or fulcrum to the internal lever arm. The smaller hole probably accomodated a matching decorative (non-functional) stud that has been lost to the sands of time as well.

Again, great find!

[Micric]

Figheadair,

Indeed very interesting!
I would like to see photos of the rim decoration if not too much trouble.

About the catch;
Does the dome (on the side with the incomplete locking mechanism) move?

My first thoughts are that this incomplete mechanism is the original, and when it lost some parts, the present mechanism was fitted.
I think this, because the catch part of the present lock looks newer where it is rivited through the front face of the cantle, and also, the dome on the face where the 'old' catch was, would appear to be in the way of this mechism, and so the domes could be newer as well...(tho' still very old!)

Re. the 172;
Again first thoughts!
We have old bill-heads of my grandfathers, dated "191...." for the early 1900's.
The last digit to be filled in when the bill was sent out, so the bill-heads were good between 1910 and 1919.
Could the original maker have had cantles made and engraved, to as near finished as possible, with the intention of having the date completed at the wishes (and expense!) of the customer?
The cantle is very intriguing, and cetainly looks old enough to have been 'born' in the 1720's!

Thank you for showing it!!!

R.
On looking at it again, the domes on the face do look original. It would be lovely figure out what was missing to replicate a fastener like this!

[figheadair]

Figheadair,

Indeed very interesting!
I would like to see photos of the rim decoration if not too much trouble.

About the catch;
Does the dome (on the side with the incomplete locking mechanism) move?

My first thoughts are that this incomplete mechanism is the original, and when it lost some parts, the present mechanism was fitted.
I think this, because the catch part of the present lock looks newer where it is rivited through the front face of the cantle, and also, the dome on the face where the 'old' catch was, would appear to be in the way of this mechism, and so the domes could be newer as well...(tho' still very old!)

Re. the 172;
Again first thoughts!
We have old bill-heads of my grandfathers, dated "191...." for the early 1900's.
The last digit to be filled in when the bill was sent out, so the bill-heads were good between 1910 and 1919.
Could the original maker have had cantles made and engraved, to as near finished as possible, with the intention of having the date completed at the wishes (and expense!) of the customer?
The cantle is very intriguing, and cetainly looks old enough to have been 'born' in the 1720's!

Thank you for showing it!!!

R.
On looking at it again, the domes on the face do look original. It would be lovely figure out what was missing to replicate a fastener like this!

Does this help



The loops at the back are Regency additions and not contemporary with the cantle.