Irish kilt books

[opositive]

sarcasm failed me once again. the kilt has become identified with the irish in the u.s., even though the kilt is not really native irish garb nor ever widely accepted as such in ireland. the kilt is traditional, historical garb in scotland. nevertheless, the irish historical society police pipe band that played at a conference i attended last month in norwood, mass. wore kilts. the american experience/tradition is different from ireland and scotland--that's what i meant to say.

[macwilkin]

When folks like me say there is no "historical" evidence for "Irish kilts" what we mean is that there is no reason in the historical record to believe that the kilt ever formed part of the native Irish dress. Kilts were not part of Irish fashion. They were never worn by any significant number of Irish men. For a time they were worn by a relatively small sub-set of Irish nationalists in an attempt to define a "national costume" but this was not entirely successful, as the article shows.

Spot on, Matt. The point of the article was not to imply that the Irish were "wrong" in wearing kilts, but to simply address the "old chestnut" that the Irish wore the kilt in the mists of antiquity. If we wanted to deny that the 19th century adoption of the kilt by Irish nationalists and Irish regiments in the British Army, we would have simply not written the article.

Sometimes, the reality of the historical record is just as fascinating as the well-known myth.

T.

[kiltbook]

I found the CD-Rom on the Scottish Tartans Museum website:

http://giftshop.scottishtartans.org/cdrom.html

Thank you, Mr. Newsome for all your help. Your article is the most accurate article I have read about Irish kilts online.

[O'Callaghan]

When folks like me say there is no "historical" evidence for "Irish kilts" what we mean is that there is no reason in the historical record to believe that the kilt ever formed part of the native Irish dress. Kilts were not part of Irish fashion. They were never worn by any significant number of Irish men. For a time they were worn by a relatively small sub-set of Irish nationalists in an attempt to define a "national costume" but this was not entirely successful, as the article shows.

You said "it is without historical basis". A correct statement would have been "it WAS without historical basis" in the 19th century. But there is a historical basis now, you see, from those Irish nationalists who wore the kilt in the late 19th century and early 20th century. The facts are not seriously in dispute, but there was still an incorrect statement in your post. Call it nit-picking or even a matter of the grammar police correcting your tense, but I find it too irritating not to say anything.

ETA: Change IS to WAS and I will stop complaining.

[OC Richard]

Yes indeed Matt has cited the best book about traditional Irish costume I've come across

Old Irish & Highland Dress

by H F McClintock

Dundalgan Press (W Tempest) LTD, Dundalk

1st Edition 1943, 2nd Edition 1950

What's great about the book is rather than make pronouncements based on personal opinion, the author puts in front of the reader the EVIDENCE, from every possible souce, and lets the evidence speak for itself.

The evidence seems to indicate that the Gaels of Ireland and Scotland at one time had a more or less shared costume (the brat and leine), and after the close cultural links had been severed by the English invasions of Ireland the traditional Irish costume (brat and leine) became extinct in Ireland, while in Scotland the old dress lived on but as it did so it went through a process of constant evolution, one aspect of which was the the brat evolving into the kilt.

In other words, the ancient Gaelic costume lived in two streams and the Irish stream was extinguished while the Scottish stream continued down its own path of evolution, eventually producing what we call Highland Dress.

The Revivalists in Ireland in the late 19th century should have, in my opinion, if they wished to re-establish the original pre-English culture, revived the original traditional uniquely Irish costume, the leine, brat, ionnar, croiss, etc etc. Instead they adopted the costume of what had become a foreign land. The foreignness and inappropriateness of the Scottish kilt did not escape the notice of many Irish nationalists and revivalists, and was widely denounced at the time.

BTW I just came across this book. I wonder if it's any good

[OC Richard]

You said "it is without historical basis"...there is a historical basis now...

If the argument is that "history" is anything prior the the present moment, then I could sew up a kilt out of fuschia neoprene and the moment it is completed it is an historical garment, if you will excuse an absurd example that makes the point.

We all know the facts and we all know what Matt meant, that the kilt had no ancient traditional existence in Ireland.

"History" means an account or record of what happened in the past and sadly there are large chunks of Scotland's and Ireland's past which were never recorded. The costume of Scotland and Ireland is one of those areas and there isn't much "history" to go on. McClintock gathers all the evidence which was available to him at that time.

[macwilkin]

If the argument is that "history" is anything prior the the present moment, then I could sew up a kilt out of fuschia neoprene and the moment it is completed it is an historical garment, if you will excuse an absurd example that makes the point.

We all know the facts and we all know what Matt meant, that the kilt had no ancient traditional existence in Ireland.

"History" means an account or record of what happened in the past and sadly there are large chunks of Scotland's and Ireland's past which were never recorded. The costume of Scotland and Ireland is one of those areas and there isn't much "history" to go on. McClintock gathers all the evidence which was available to him at that time.

Originally, the artist Seán Keating headed up a committee to design a uniform in a suitably modern-but-Celtic style, as was the general artistic bent of the Irish state at the time. Keating’s design called for a saffron léine tunic with six rows of black braid, black cuffs, a blue brat cloak, pantaloons, and a black Balmoral bonnet with saffron feather.



See: http://www.andrewcusack.com/2010/04/...-blue-hussars/

T.

[kiltbook]

I am not really interested in historical dress. The book, Tartans and Highland Dress by C.R. MacKinnon of Dunakin is a textbook and bible for those who wear the Scottish kilt.

Actually, IMHO it is the only book that a Scotsman need buy in order to wear the kilt properly. I was wondering if something similar exists for those of Irish descent. A single book that will provide instructions on present day dress.

I have been using the attire worn by Irish dancers and Irish bagpipers in an attempt to develop my own style of wearing the kilt that is authentically Irish.

Here are a few pictures of contemporary Irish kilts:


Darren Smith of Trinity Irish Dance Company



Two photos from an Irish Dance Competition in Ireland in 2008






An Irish bagpiper:

[kiltbook]

Is there an Irish version of the book Tartans and Highland Dress by C.R. MacKinnon of Dunakin?

[CMcG]

I haven't encountered a book that details contemporary Irish kilt wear. You could, however, do a Google custom image search of Xmarksthescot for the word "Irish" and you will find plenty of pictures to reflect on. Something like this search: CLICK HERE.

You could also start a new thread about the topic you're interested in and draw directly on the collective knowledge of the members of this forum. Something like "what are the various approaches to Irish kilts?" or "when, where, and how do you wear the Irish kilt?"

Looking at pictures of Irish dancers, pipers, or regiments is a good idea, but keep in mind that those are uniforms. Civilian wear is -- and should be -- different than what people are required to wear for performance, service, or competition. You may also find that a majority of Irish kilts are worn outside of Ireland by the diaspora.