"Saffron" colour of Irish kilts?

[OC Richard]

We've all seen the "saffron" Irish kilts. They're worn by the pipers in the Irish Guards and Royal Irish Rangers:





and by many civilians, pipers and nonpipers alike:



So with this all in mind, it was very interesting to read what HF McClintock has to say on the subject in Old Irish & Highland Dress:

"Saffron is a dye made from the dried stigmas of the autumn crocus (crocus sativa). The name "saffron" is from the Arabic, but the dye was known to the Greeks as Krokos whence the Latin Crocus and the Irish croch.

Though little heard of nowadays, it enjoyed a considerable reputation among the ancients and in the Middle Ages, primarily as a dye, but also as a drug, a spice, and a perfume. It was formerly much grown in England, its cultivators being called "crokers" (whence that surname) and its cultivation was kept up at Saffron Walden in Essex till as late as about 1768. In Ireland, Castle Saffron, in Co Cork is said to take its name from the quantity formerly grown there, and a pamphlet advocating its cultivation in Ireland was published by the Dublin Society in 1732...

From all this, it is beyond question both that the Irish in old days knew of saffron and that the country was capable of producing as much of it as the people cared to grow...

From experiments specially made by a competitent dyer, it was found to give a pure yellow without any tinge of brown, varying from primrose to a full buttercup shade, thus confirming exactly the colour of the tunic (leine) in De Heere's paintings...

Saffron is therefore a perfectly definite dye which was much more familiarly known in the sixteenth century than it is now; and when we find sixteenth-century writers repeatedly calling the colour of the Irish shirts "saffron" in three languages (English saffron, Latin crocotus, Irish croich), and never calling it anything else, we need very strong evidence to show that the dye was not saffron or, at any rate, a dye which produced the colour of saffron. Most of these writers indeed say explicitly that the shirts, both in Ireland and Scotland, were dyed with saffron...

I do not know what evidence there is in support of the brown shade now called "saffron" but in face of the above facts, I think it would have to be very strong."

[MrShoe]

The "brown shade" is a representation of the color of the stigma. When used as a dye 'it is an unstable colouring agent; the imparted vibrant orange-yellow hue quickly fades to a pale and creamy yellow. The saffron stamens, even in minute amounts, yield a luminous yellow-orange colour. Increasing the amount of saffron applied will turn the fabric's imparted colour an increasingly rich shade of red.

So it could be the unfaded, originally hue that a heavy fabric like wool would be. Lighter/thinner materials may have faded quickly or not have taken to deeper hues.

Look at it as either a heavily dyed, unfaded saffron or as an ancient weathered material. None the less, this is the color that Pearse and the few Irish Nationalists selected to represent the revival back in 1900. With there being little documented history to support the Irish Kilt, the "brown shade" seems to be consistent with those that were early in its existence.

[O'Callaghan]

The "brown shade" is a representation of the color of the stigma. When used as a dye 'it is an unstable colouring agent; the imparted vibrant orange-yellow hue quickly fades to a pale and creamy yellow. The saffron stamens, even in minute amounts, yield a luminous yellow-orange colour. Increasing the amount of saffron applied will turn the fabric's imparted colour an increasingly rich shade of red.

So it could be the unfaded, originally hue that a heavy fabric like wool would be. Lighter/thinner materials may have faded quickly or not have taken to deeper hues.

Look at it as either a heavily dyed, unfaded saffron or as an ancient weathered material. None the less, this is the color that Pearse and the few Irish Nationalists selected to represent the revival back in 1900. With there being little documented history to support the Irish Kilt, the "brown shade" seems to be consistent with those that were early in its existence.

You may be right, of course, but my understanding was that saffron turns linen yellow because linen has a very poor takeup of dyes, hence the reason for using saffron on the Irish leine in the first place, i.e. other dyes would not colour the linen fabric. I always understood that some sort of orange/brown shade was the normal result obtained in dyeing most other fabrics with saffron. Hence, for example, a Tibetan monk's saffron robes, which I think are cotton (??), turn out a relatively similar shade to a woollen saffron kilt.

[OC Richard]

a Tibetan monk's saffron robes, which I think are cotton (??), turn out a relatively similar shade to a woollen saffron kilt.

I see monks in their robes very often where I work. I don't know where they're from, or what fabric their robes are, or what they dye them with, but they're not the orangish brown of the modern "saffron" Irish kilt, but rather a pale yellow or yellow-orange.

People have mentioned the dying of wool. I don't think there's any old references to the wool brat or mantle being dyed saffron; it's the leine or shirt that's saffron.

Of course Irish revivalists saw the bit of the leine which hangs below the ionar or jacket and mistook it for a kilt. Likewise the pleated skirts of early jackets are often thought to be kilts by these wishful thinkers.

[MrShoe]

People have mentioned the dying of wool. I don't think there's any old references to the wool brat or mantle being dyed saffron; it's the leine or shirt that's saffron.

But when it came to a kilt, they were of course to be wool.
I have not come across anything that would say that brats or mantles were not dyed in saffron.

leine[/I] which hangs below the ionar or jacket and mistook it for a kilt. Likewise the pleated skirts of early jackets are often thought to be kilts by these wishful thinkers.

We won't get into the whole discussion of Irish and kilts, that has been done many times. None the less, there has been 110 years of "brownish" saffron kilts being know as the "Irish tradition".

[O'Callaghan]

But when it came to a kilt, they were of course to be wool.

That was exactly my meaning. Anyone dyeing a woolen kilt with saffron would necessarily have wound up with the shade that we now have.

I have not come across anything that would say that brats or mantles were not dyed in saffron.

Indeed not, although apparently the only quote on the subject says that brats were 'striped'. Some take that as tartan, which may or may not have been right. There is certainly much earlier evidence of tartan being known to celts. OTOH, neither did it say striped vertically and horizontally, so they may not have been tartan either.

We won't get into the whole discussion of Irish and kilts, that has been done many times. None the less, there has been 110 years of "brownish" saffron kilts being know as the "Irish tradition".

As of 1900, the discussion seems to have centred on adopting something for Irish national dress that would actually get worn, not on accurately reproducing something ancient.

Nevertheless, there are some reports of the British Army adopting the saffron kilt for Irish pipers at some point during the previous century. Whether the British Army thought that the ancient Irish had worn kilts is not something we know or are likely to find out. What we do know for sure, though, is that the kilt could be combined with standard military uniform on the upper half of the body, whereas that isn't true of the leine.

[Slag101]

Don't forget that the mordant has an impact on the final color as well as oxidation. We have to consider the oxidation of the dye stuff, the mordant, and the combination of the two. An example of this is indigo. Indigo is still used to dye denim. The varying shades of blue with indigo dye can be from the lightest, palest, almost white blue to the darkest, almost black blue. This varies based on the purity of the dye (how much of it is really indigo), what other color enhancers may be added, and what mordent is used. Also, the type of material being dyed plays a part. Vegetable dyes will vary in shade, stability, colorfastness, oxidation rates, oxidation shades, etc. There can also be great variation from one dye lot to the next for a variety of reasons, including how long the dye is cooked for, how long the cloth is exposed for, etc.

[macwilkin]

As of 1900, the discussion seems to have centred on adopting something for Irish national dress that would actually get worn, not on accurately reproducing something ancient.

Nevertheless, there are some reports of the British Army adopting the saffron kilt for Irish pipers at some point during the previous century. Whether the British Army thought that the ancient Irish had worn kilts is not something we know or are likely to find out. What we do know for sure, though, is that the kilt could be combined with standard military uniform on the upper half of the body, whereas that isn't true of the leine.

Did you ever find a source for this claim of a mid 19th century adoption of the kilt by Irish regiments of the British Army? The earliest I have found comes from the raising of the Irish Guards during the Boer War at the turn of the century, about the same time that the myth of the kilt as an ancient Irish garment was coming into fashion.

T.

[O'Callaghan]

Did you ever find a source for this claim of a mid 19th century adoption of the kilt by Irish regiments of the British Army? The earliest I have found comes from the raising of the Irish Guards during the Boer War at the turn of the century, about the same time that the myth of the kilt as an ancient Irish garment was coming into fashion.

T.

Not really, apart from assertions on various webpages. It seems to be quite commonly believed, though. I think that there are possibly provable dates for the introduction of pipers in certain regiments, and this is usually coupled with the assumption that they wore kilts. This doesn't mean they didn't, though. I have seen similar claims that the kilt as a symbol of Irish nationalism goes back to the founding of the Gaelic League (which we know was 1893). None of this meets your standards as a historian, though.

Given that the British Army co-opted the kilt as a symbol in Scotland, I have to say it does seem possible that they only adopted it for pipers in Ireland after the republicans adopted the kilt, as a similar 'spoiler'. Except that they do appear to have adopted the pipes themselves before the republicans did, so why not the kilt as well?

As an aside, the two-drone pipes do seem to have been played in Ireland at a much earlier date than either the British Army or the republicans played them. Of course, they appear to have been introduced to the British Isles via France in that form, so there is nothing uniquely Irish about pipes of that particular type. It's more the case that the three-drone version is uniquely Scottish, and therefore the two-drone version is more authentic for non-Scots. Nevertheless, you'll notice that the pictures at the beginning of the thread show pipes with three drones. I have seen older photos of Irish regiments with pipes that only have two drones, though.

[OC Richard]

Wow this thread was just happening over the last couple days and who should walk by yesterday but a group of around ten monks!

Most of the robes were the usual "saffron" colour, but one guys' robe was indeed a brownish shade, and one was a brilliant glowing orange.

Monks and mordants aside, McClintock lays out all the evidence available to him (in the 1940's) all of which points to the saffron colour of the old Irish leine being a light clear yellow.

Nobody has yet to put forth any evidence which conflicts with his conclusion, that the brown-orange colour used in modern Irish kilts has no historical basis.