Is there a right way for an asymetrical tartan?

[ctbuchanan]

One of the things I like most about my clan tartan is that it is asymmetrical. But nloken raised a point on a recent photo post of mine. Is there a proper way for the tartan to be sewed into a kilt? In this case should the yellow stripe or the red stripe be on top. Here's a photo of the installation of officers for our Buchanan Clan Society and you can clearly see its about 50/50. hmmm.

[Chas]

Out of the five kilts I count three different ways the kilts have been made up. I think that is the charm of an asymmetric tartan.

Regards

Chas

[sydnie7]

The twill line usually determines which way the tartan is oriented for a kilt, but there are posts discussing twill line which point out that some mills have/are changing the way they orient the twill line.

[Macman]

Out of the five kilts I count three different ways the kilts have been made up. I think that is the charm of an asymmetric tartan.

Ah, yes. Is a kilt inside out, or is there such a thing?

[figheadair]

One of the things I like most about my clan tartan is that it is asymmetrical. But nloken raised a point on a recent photo post of mine. Is there a proper way for the tartan to be sewed into a kilt? In this case should the yellow stripe or the red stripe be on top.

What stripe (colour) appears at the selvedge of any tartan, symmetric or asymmetric, is a function of how the weaver/mill setts the loom.

In the case of an asymmetric sett it's their choice where to start at the selvedge but commonly this will be affected by the size of the sett and whether the cloth is single or double width. Historically (C19th and later) tartan was set to give a dark border, probably because a paler one will show the dirt over time when used for kilting. Personally I would never weave a piece with a lighter colour at the selvedge and so set the pattern to ensure a darker colour at the edge.

The direction of the twill is irrelevant to the making of a kilt but as commercial weavers have their cloth finished (washed and rolled) there is, in their eyes, a finished side, the so called good face. If a piece of cloth has a twill that runs bottom left to top right when laid out, turning it over will give a face that runs bottom right to top left. Making a kilt with the good face inside or out will make no difference to how the material hangs or your kilt looks.

[Chas]

What stripe (colour) appears at the selvedge of any tartan, symmetric or asymmetric, is a function of how the weaver/mill setts the loom.

In the case of an asymmetric sett it's their choice where to start at the selvedge but commonly this will be affected by the size of the sett and whether the cloth is single or double width. Historically (C19th and later) tartan was set to give a dark border, probably because a paler one will show the dirt over time when used for kilting. Personally I would never weave a piece with a lighter colour at the selvedge and so set the pattern to ensure a darker colour at the edge.

The direction of the twill is irrelevant to the making of a kilt but as commercial weavers have their cloth finished (washed and rolled) there is, in their eyes, a finished side, the so called good face. If a piece of cloth has a twill that runs bottom left to top right when laid out, turning it over will give a face that runs bottom right to top left. Making a kilt with the good face inside or out will make no difference to how the material hangs or your kilt looks.

This is a really good insight - something I was not aware of. For some reason, I believed that the selvedge was the pivot point, to give the maximum number of setts across the cloth. In truth, I don't really understand, but are you saying that this is not so?

Regards

Chas

[RockyR]

SNIP... but are you saying that this is not so?

Correct... it is NOT so.

Small point of clarification that is my understanding (I MAY be wrong, but this is how I understand it)... Asymmetrical tartan's do't "pivot", they repeat: ABCABCABC Symmetrical tartans pivot: ABCBABCBABCBA

Either way, the selvedge edge is not usually a pivot point, unless the math just happens to work out that way. Think of the WHITE line in Douglas Modern. That is the pivot point, yet the white line itself is RARELY (if ever) used for the selvedge edge. Typically, it is a darker section of the tartan (at least 1 CM 'tall') that's used for the selvedge (if possible) and ESPECIALLY when it's a TUCK selvedge (like Lochcarron, MM, Batleys and about 10% of HOE's cloth). This way, the part of the cloth tucked back in won't show nearly as much.

[Paul Henry]

Typically, it is a darker section of the tartan (at least 1 CM 'tall') that's used for the selvedge (if possible) and ESPECIALLY when it's a TUCK selvedge (like Lochcarron, MM, Batleys and about 10% of HOE's cloth). This way, the part of the cloth tucked back in won't show nearly as much.

Yes, which is why one of the earlier runs of the Xmarks tartan had problems as the resulting colouring issues of the selvedge wasn't properly considered, subsequent runs have been organised slightly differently.

So the answer to the question is the selvedge edge a pivot point ( or the start of the sett repeat), sometimes but not neccessarily so, the skill of the weaver and judging which colour will work best, whihc is why you should always speak to a weaver or someone experienced in tartans when designing a tartan

[Chas]

Thanks guys - the fog has somewhat cleared. I don't know if it helped the OP, but I certainly know more than I did an hour ago. I will now be spending all my time checking out everybody else's selvedge.

Regards

Chas

[Barb T]

The *real* issue for an asymmetric tartan is which half of the tartan that the kiltmaker used for the kilt. No amount of reversing the tartan so that the twill points left or right or starting the tartan at the selvedge in a different place in the sett is going to make a difference in the warp order of the stripes. Think of it this way. A piece of tartan has two selvedges. The main undercheck of the Buchanan is green-yellow-red. So, let's assume that we start at the left edge of the tartan at the selvedge, and the repeat going away from the selvedge is GYR all the way across the tartan. If you made the kilt from this half of the tartan, the kilt would have the yellow stripe closer to the selvedge than the red stripe.

If we then go to the other selvedge, the tartan will have the same repeat approaching the selvedge from the left (i.e., GYR), but if you start at that selvedge and go toward the center of the tartan, the *red* stripe will be closer to the selvedge. So, if you made the kilt from this half of the tartan, it would have the red stripe closer to the selvedge.

The only way to use up both widths of a double width piece of fabric in a single kilt is to have a hem in the kilt, so most kiltmakers will ask for a single width ripped from the double width, and most mills will sell it that way. So, half the kilts made from a bolt of double width fabric will have the red closer to the selvedge and the others will have the yellow closer to the selvedge.

So, it's not a question of either twill line or where the mill decides to start the tartan when winding the warp.

Oh - and, a "pivot" to my mind is a point where the tartan reverses to make a mirror image of the tartan on the other side of the pivot (because the literal meaning of the word "pivot" is "turn"). Yes, an asymmetric tartan repeats, but it doesn't have pivots.