Economic theory

[David Thornton]

There are a predominance of posts that relate to making a kilt. This would indicate, on a purely economic level, that kilts are a bit overpriced relative to percieved value.
Example. When steel shot was first mandated, the cost was $25 a box and higher. Most of us could reload for $7 a box, so we did. Now that premium shells are $9 a box, I buy new. Some still make their own, but it's usually to get something that is not available commercially.
No one would undertake making a suit, time & material vs cost doesn't make sence. And, anything you could desire is available.
So, is the market still to high due to lack of production? Is the market correct & our expectations are off?
Just random thoughts, I'll give more detail if I am not communicating well.
Thoughts?
Thanks
David

[Ugly Bear]

I think you're confusing a niche with the general buying public. Demand for kilts is still very low among most people. If it seems like demand is high from reading posts on this board, that's because this is a very, very skewed demographic -- we're here because we already purchase and use kilts.

But even our limited demand is already having an effect on this small market. Our demand for cheaper kilts has made USA Kilts a success, just as our appetite for a wider variety of styles has generated business for Utilikilts, Pittsburgh Kilts, Freedom Kilts and many others. Compare variety and prices now to the pre-internet days when the only choice was imported kilts costing $400 and up. There is more choice now at a lower price. While the modern garments are by no means the multi-generational heirlooms that the traditionalists make, they meet a demand.

Yes, kilts are still expensive compared to buy-off-the-rack garments. But they are not TOO expensive. They are, by and large, individually-tailored garments. In that respect, they're reasonable. The day may come when kilts are mass-produced by cheap, sweatshop labor and the prices come down. But the quality will come down, too. You may someday find kilts on the rack at Wal*Mart for $19.95, but they'll be size S-M-L-XL-XXL. Waist, hip and length measures, pleat count and depth, material, fastening, and countless other details would be pre-determined.

Think of it like a suitcoat. These days, you can get a suitcoat off the rack for $100 or less. But the individual touch suffers, in fit, cut and quality. You can get a far better suit by having one tailor-made, at a price.

I suspect that many of the men on this board have tastes so discerning that buying a size-M kilt with a $20 bill just won't cut it. I'll likely continue to give my business to the tailors rather than the mass-marketers.

If you want the price to come down quickly, get more men into kilts as soon as you can. Rocky, Jeff, Steve and others will appreciate the business, and they'll be able to hire people and expand production, and will lower the price to compete.

In conclusion: To save money on kilts, buy "expensive" kilts now.

Cruel irony, isn't it?

[GMan]

Good thoughts you have David. I would speculate that the idea of making a kilt (cilt) comes to a sense of accomplishment. I always appreciate seeing things that I have done and take a great deal of satisfaction in it, whether it is a painted wall or a cake.

Granted economics may and probably does weigh into the factor, but to me the idea of "I did it" is also very important.

Just my thoughts.

[Presuming Ed]

I would guess that a significant proportion of a new kilt - especially tanks - are labour costs. Therefore the price charged reflects the rate for skilled labour - this is why making your own is attractive to some, as you get a kilt without having to pay for the (wo)man hours that have gone into making it. The only way in which to make them cheaper would be:

1) Reduce the amount of labour required. Have a simpler kilt (hard to do with a trad tank), or invent a machine which can do much of the most labour intensive work involved in making a kilt, or

2) Estabish a kilt-making operation somewhere where labour costs are far lower - China, India etc.

[RockyR]

I don't mind people trying to make a kilt for themselves... I understand the "I did it myself" mentality. Generally, the material people get for their first kilt (bought at a local fabric shop) is "not the best" quality and figuring out how to make the first one is very difficult (it took us a LONG time to perfect our different designs). Trying to make one yourself actually HELPS people appreciate the $100 - $130 kilts that are out there now! I've had several people tell me that they tried to make a kilt themselves and gave up and ended up buying one of ours!

What I do NOT like is when people take our Casual kilt and copy it EXACTLY to make kilts for everyone they know. We had a lady come into our shop and straight up TELL us that she was making kilts for her wedding party. She said she wanted to see how we did it so she could copy our design for 5 kilts because she "didn't want to spend the money on rental or buying them". Needless to say, she wasn't in the shop much longer than that last sentence.

Alan used PART of our design and part of other company's kilt designs to make a kilt for himself and that's FINE... but stealing our design to replicate on several kilts for multiple people gets under my skin. Utilikilt has to deal with people (and small "fly by night" companies*) that try to rip off their EXACT design all the time (because they're bigger and more well recognized than us). I feel bad for them.

Sorry for the rant... back to the topic.


* "small fly by night" companies comment was NOT a reflection of FK, PK or RK... they all have ORIGINAL designs.

[RockyR]

Hey Presuming Ed... Welcome to the board!

The following is not an attack, but a statement of facts. Trying to educate you a bit

I would guess that a significant proportion of a new kilt - especially tanks - are labour costs. Therefore the price charged reflects the rate for skilled labour - this is why making your own is attractive to some, as you get a kilt without having to pay for the (wo)man hours that have gone into making it. .

Not totally true... there is a good amt of labor and experience that goes into it, but WOOL IS EXPENSIVE. If you try to buy it retail from a company that SELLS wool (not kilts... just raw material), you're looking at about $60 to $75 / yard. In an 8 yard kilt, you're looking at $240 to $300 MATERIAL cost. Compare that to a 8 yard wool "tank", made to measure, for $500.

The only way in which to make them cheaper would be:

1) Reduce the amount of labour required. Have a simpler kilt (hard to do with a trad tank), or invent a machine which can do much of the most labour intensive work involved in making a kilt, or .

You can buy a "pleating" machine. It's a machine you can set to pleat up fabric for you, but it will NOT be to a particular design. It's MEANT to make curtains. It'll end up with no pattern on the back. If you simplify the DESIGN, you can keep labor costs down. Problem is, most designs that are "simple" look "simple" and skirtlike.

2) Estabish a kilt-making operation somewhere where labour costs are far lower - China, India etc.

Not India, but close... Pakistan. The kilts produced ARE wool... not WORSTED wool, but a wool/felt blend that falls apart in time. Another option for Pakistani kilt fabric is Acrylic. It's cheap. That's all I'll say about it. They're VERY inexpensive to buy wholesale and I'm sure every kiltmaker on this board gets at LEAST 1 to 2 emails a week from a different pakistani company soliciting business.

[David Thornton]

Rocky, she may have lasted longer with you than she would have with me.
I do not take you comments as a rant, rather as a response based on your experience.
All of you touched on one of my basis for the discussion in the first place. Cost of labor. I cannot sew a kilt for what I can buy one for, even if I only pay myself $20 an hour. So, why do so many want to? The perception that a new kilt is too expensive.
Ugly, I beg to differ. The market is growing exponentially. Both on the custom side and on the off shore side, not to mention the emergance of the modern kilt.
I have on my tank today becasue of a dinner engagement tonight. I'm a buyer, so you know I'm not complaining, just wondering. Again, my understanding would indicate that with growing demand, and a fairly high price for a decent kilt, more competition would come in and prices would drop.
David

[Ugly Bear]

We had a lady come into our shop and straight up TELL us that she was making kilts for her wedding party. She said she wanted to see how we did it so she could copy our design for 5 kilts because she "didn't want to spend the money on rental or buying them". Needless to say, she wasn't in the shop much longer than that last sentence.

Good for you. You probably kept her entire wedding party from looking like crap. (That's not knocking your design, just making a guess that she was looking to outfit the party as cheaply as possible.) I can picture them on the morning of the wedding, getting their kilts made out of tablecloths and duct tape.

By the way, do you outfit wedding parties? I'd think there'd be a sizable demand for wedding kilts in the $100-250 range. After all, it's a garment that most of them are probably planning on never wearing again, and the alternative is something in the $400-900 range. I'd think you could drum up a lot of business by courting wedding parties.

[Archangel]

I make a good wage, probably above average. It takes about one day of my pay, before deductions, to buy one of (diplomatic cough) kilts. He says it takes about six hours to make a kilt. He supplies all the material and tailor fits it to me. From the change, he has to pay his taxes, benefits, travel and other business costs. His actual wage for this is probably a little above minimum wage. Why would I resent that?

For the full out heavy duty regimental weight, I think prices have come down. Granted, the weight of my first kilt is no longer available. However, I estimate that first one cost about $CDN1000 (you wouldn't believe the job I had when I was seventeen in the UK), the nearest modern equivalent would be about $CDN650.

[davedove]

Greater demand would cause some kilt makers to look into more cast savings measures. For one thing, you would start seeing a lot more companies offering off the rack kilts, with standard sizes, just as with other garments. However, you would still have some kilt makers doing it the old way, and these would still be expensive. We are seeing a little bit of this now, but if kilts are gerally accepted, these practices will grow considerably. With general acceptance, you would get the Walmart kilts, which while perfectly functional, just would not be of the same quality. (Not putting down Walmart - I buy a lot of stuff there).