Traditonal vs. Historical

[Jock Scot]

I hear what you say Steve and whilst I am reluctant to use myself as an example ------no there are no pictures of me on the beach( I think!)----there are more than one or two pictures of me on this web site in shirt sleeves, pullovers, with /without a tie, in a waist coat and shirt sleeves, in tweed, in the office, out in the country, going fishing, at weddings locally and in France for anyone to see that THCD in my book is very much alive and in constant use. Don't believe me? Have a look at my thread "New Kilt, Old Pin",one or two pictures of the kilt being worn in daily life there! THCD is, day to day wear and yes evening dress attire as well, although not exclusively neccessarilly, for some of us and we do in fact see the kilt as "just clothes" from that aspect. It is how those clothes are worn and the approriateness------not rules--- that go with it that seems to be so difficult for us to explain.

It is true that many who dress so perfectly in their "perfect THCD" attire that look so wooden and almost uncomfortable and make the whole thing look so un-natural. Sorry chaps, but you do and its just not those on this website either, I see it often in Scotland too. Steve on the other hand and for example who wears his kilt, I think daily, looks quite at ease in how he dresses. This is not something that can be bought, it is a look aquired through experience and understanding that breeds a comfortable marriage of the kilt and mindset. How one chooses to wear the kilt actually matters little in gaining this comfortable state of affairs.

[Steve Ashton]

I think we are saying the same thing Jock. Just using different words.

I have managed to become bilingual. I speak Canadian and American. This Scottish though, that's tough.

[Jock Scot]

I think we are saying the same thing Jock. Just using different words.

I have managed to become bilingual. I speak Canadian and American. This Scottish though, that's tough.

Perhaps its this "tough Scottish" English language that is making the Americans and Canadians so difficult to advise?

[Father Bill]

Jock - YOU're hiding under the chair???? I am for sure; were I to offer an opinion here, especially about "language" I'd be out of my league and have to hide for sure!

[BBNC]

Let me see if I can give an example from my own life.

I wear the kilt everyday. I like it and I also have a job that encourages it. When someone walks into a kilt shop they expect to see guys in kilts.

I also wear the kilt as everyday clothing. I am not trying to live the heritage or show off my finery. I am trying to get others to see that the kilt can be worn as normal, everyday clothes.

Each of us in the kilt shop has a slightly different style. Jackson is in t-shirt and sandals from May through Sept. Justin is still getting used to it all and does not yet have a lot of accessories. I am usually the most "dressed-up" of us all. I am usually in collared long sleeve shirt, hose and brogues.

What a customer sees when they walk in is three different styles that if you replaced the kilt with pants would still work. This is what we are trying to get across to our customers.

I suppose we could dress in full THCD everyday. We could easily wear Argyle jackets and sport bonnets. We could even carry cromachs and lairds plaids if we wished. But what would that say to our customers?

I think that sometimes we here give this same impression when we originally intended to show off a new jacket or we post a pic of how we were dressed at the last Games.

I firmly believe that if we were to dress following some of the examples here we would be giving the impression that the kilt was only for formal or Scottish themed venues. The kilt would not be seen as a normal, everyday option to pants.

I think that Samuel Jackson gave a very good first impression to kilt wearing in the movie Formula 51. He is in a kilt for almost the entire movie. Nothing special, not following any rules and certainly not trying to give the impression of what is proper.

Attachment 12799

Many of us bemoan the fact that kilt wearing is not becoming mainstream. I would suggest that it is possible that we may be our own worse enemy in some cases.

As a new kilt wearer, I've been much interested in seeing different styles of kilt dress and how they apply to different contexts. I agree with Steve about being our own worst enemy. As Matt Newsome has pointed out on more than one occasion, and Steve mentioned in this post, a kilt is like a pair of pants, which most of us probably agree, are worn and accessorized to suit the occasion. Would we wear jeans to a formal event, or a tux to the beach? I think not (well, maybe some). Most tailored tartan kilts have the advantage that if suitably accessorized, the same one can do a re-enactment in the morning, the beach in the afternoon, and then be dressed to the nines for that evening. I think the lines between tradition and history are somewhat blurry, and can be difficult to define in the case of the tailored kilt. Look at what we usually consider evening wear...the basics go back to the 19th century, if old pictures are to be believed. Is this tradition, or history? Tee shirts and sandals in public are a recent phenomena...a new tradition getting underway?

[artificer]

I agree very much with the sentiment expressed over the last few pages that perhaps we need another subforum.

I think part of our issue is that there exists a gap between the "Modern" kilt forum and the THCD, which would most properly be called "Contemporary" (in the truest sense of the word, meaning 'of the current time').

If the Modern kilt forum is for MUGS, and the THCD forum is where the tweed jackets and cromachs reside, there is a clear gap where a chap wearing a traditional or casual tartan kilt topped off with a sweater, tshirt, or non-traditional jacket would fit. CMcG's
more casual styles come to mind as great examples





Likewise, perhaps a uniform/costume subforum might help avoid muddying other waters as well.

ith:

[Jock Scot]

I agree very much with the sentiment expressed over the last few pages that perhaps we need another subforum.

I think part of our issue is that there exists a gap between the "Modern" kilt forum and the THCD, which would most properly be called "Contemporary" (in the truest sense of the word, meaning 'of the current time').

If the Modern kilt forum is for MUGS, and the THCD forum is where the tweed jackets and cromachs reside, there is a clear gap where a chap wearing a traditional or casual tartan kilt topped off with a sweater, tshirt, or non-traditional jacket would fit. CMcG's
more casual styles come to mind as great examples





Likewise, perhaps a uniform/costume subforum might help avoid muddying other waters as well.

ith:

Perspective is an interesting thing and getting agreement will be an almost impossible thing to achieve, but we can try. Anyway, to my eyes picture number one would be firmly placed in the THCD catigory,whilst the next two would not.

[MacLowlife]

Colin, ever helpful...

Once again, Colin has provided an excellent illustration of my point. Were he to go into a bank wearing the top outfit or the bottom one, armed with a gun and demanding money, witnesses would say "It was a man in a kilt." If he were to go in wearing the middle outfit they would say "It was a man with sadly delusional ideas about Pro Basketball wearing a kilt."

[TheOfficialBren]

I agree very much with the sentiment expressed over the last few pages that perhaps we need another subforum.

I think part of our issue is that there exists a gap between the "Modern" kilt forum and the THCD, which would most properly be called "Contemporary" (in the truest sense of the word, meaning 'of the current time').

If the Modern kilt forum is for MUGS, and the THCD forum is where the tweed jackets and cromachs reside, there is a clear gap where a chap wearing a traditional or casual tartan kilt topped off with a sweater, tshirt, or non-traditional jacket would fit. CMcG's
more casual styles come to mind as great examples





Likewise, perhaps a uniform/costume subforum might help avoid muddying other waters as well.

ith:

Picture Number 1 sums up the vast majority of how I apply my kilt to the rest of my wardrobe.

Good illustrations and great commentary on this thread. This is one of the best threads in a while.

[CMcG]

The interesting thing about a discussion of traditional vs. historical is that it is more of a continuum, rather than a dichotomy. That is to say some items or outfits might be clearly one or the other, but sometimes there is grey area.

One particularly troublesome area is that traditional dress codes tend to be more formal. Wearing a tweed jacket and tie for a smart casual look or a doublet and jabot for formal wear may be traditional, but can come across as a bit antiquated by the more relaxed standards of dress in modern, western society at large. On Xmarks, however, we would probably applaud such a well-dressed person for their adherence to tradition!

Some items are quite clear. A great kilt, for example, is instantly recognizable as historical. Hair sporrans for daywear are less obvious because they used to be common, but are now rarely seen. They haven't died out entirely and it is tricky to say whether wearing one is the fringe of tradition, a revival of historical practice, or an anachronism.

This occasional murkiness between traditional and historical is compounded by personal preference and, as MacLowlife so eloquently pointed out, context. Take a dirk for instance. It is a correct accessory for giving an Address To The Haggis, but in most other social situations could be viewed as a bit outdated for civilians.

Seeing as pictures of me are being used as examples, let me add some of that context to the images.

Traditional Highland attire for non-traditional weather i.e. the heat of summer.


North American Irish style for a Saint Pat's parade. Note that it is very nearly an identical outfit to the previous example (same kilt, hose, flashes, shoes, and sporran) but the loud jacket and hat immediately pushes it outside of THCD.


Pure, working from home, grad student, un-bifurcated slobbery. Note the accessories such as Pierre Bourdieu's The Logic of Practice and a pen behind my ear, as well as the lack of a sporran or shoes. I wouldn't be seen outside the house wearing this outfit, but here it is on Xmarks for everyone's amusement and/or edification. Not very traditional by my estimation.


If I were posting those pics for discussion, I'd say the first one goes in the Traditional sub-forum, while the other two go in the Contemporary sub-forum or perhaps the General sub-forum, based on the way the way the kilts are worn. In actual fact, both the kilts are more contemporary because, despite being tartan, they are non-wool and machine sewn. This is actually a good example of the overall look or style being more important than the internal construction when it comes to picking a sub-forum.

...We never see any examples that the poster says are THCD when it is anything but a full Scottish Highland inspired outfit.

And actually more like something out of a 1930's photo. Oh so perfect. Oh so correct, following the inspiration of long ago. Suitable only if you are attending a Scottish themed event.
...

As for discussions of THCD that get away from the "whole nine yards uber Scot" approach, see this recent thread:

Less Can Be More