Argyle jacket with white tie?

[RichardtheLarge]

I’ve read on the forum that an Argyle jacket can be worn as white tie with jabot and cuffs despite its double duty as daywear and semi-formal wear. Who thinks that this is the case? Does anyone here wear an Argyle with a jabot set? Thank you!

[Jock Scot]

No,no,NO! The black Barathea silver buttoned argyll(BBSBA) is fine for minor black tie events, but is physically not designed to be worn with a jabot, therefore quite unsuitable to be worn at white tie events.

[Steve Ashton]

I am one of those that believes that white tie is not just wearing a white bow tie instead of a black one. I do not believe wearing lace jabot and cuffs denotes white tie.

To me white tie is only for those most formal of events. State dinners, the Noble prize awards and banquet, the opening night of the Vienna opera.
(I happened to witness first hand a man arrive at the Noble prize ceremony not in the proscribed uniform who was politly directed down the street to one of the hire stores, who stay open late, and to obtain the appropriate attire.)

To me white tie is a proscribed uniform. It is "White Tie and Tails". This means a tail coat and all of the appropriate accessories.

I am one of those who does not believe that there is a kilted equivilant to white tie. The only exception would be as the official representitive of Scotland at a state function where other heads of state are representig their countries in their National Dress.

So no, I'm sorry, I do not believe that an Argyle jacket is acceptable white tie attire.

[OC Richard]

For sure Jock knows the current state of things in Scotland.

But historically speaking, in the Victorian period, jackets of Argyll cut seem to have been regarded the same as jackets of any other cut, in other words the cut of the jacket didn't appear to matter, but rather the fabric and buttons.

So you see the typical Highland doublets (with the "Inverness" skirts around the bottom) and jackets of the Argyll cut (no skirts, the lower front edges of the jacket curving back to reveal the sporran) both worn in equally formal dress.

Recall that the Prince Charlie coatee, the Kenmore doublet, the Montrose doublet (not a doublet per se, by the way) and the Sheriffmuir doublet had all yet to be invented in Victorian times. The only formal jackets were traditional doublets and Argyll jackets.

Well "formal jackets" with the caveat that in the Victorian period quite plain jackets, with matching dark buttons, and bereft of any ornamental cuffs etc, were often worn with the most elaborate possible Evening attire. Dressing up then was more about the accessories than the jacket itself.

(About the "white tie" debate I know nothing and care nothing- all I do is look at vintage photographs and accept what they show as being a reality at the time and place the photo was taken, nothing more.)

Argyll-cut jackets worn with lace jabot as part of Evening attire

[MacCathmhaoil]

I have a black barathea silver button Argyle, a black velvet silver button Argyle as well as a black velvet Balmoral doublet in my closet. In my opinion, the only one suitable to wear to a highland white tie affair, such as the Royal Caledonian Ball, would be the black velvet Balmoral doublet. That being said one needs only to look at the photos to see that not everyone interprets the dress codes in a similar way. Where the dress is specified as white tie or mess dress only, I would wear white tie and tails and not highland dress!
As for Steve's view that there is no white tie equivalent in highland dress I would argue that while that may be the case outside of Scotland it is just not so within. One need only look at the photos from any of the tradional balls held yearly such as the Oban ball, the Skye ball, Perth ball etc..
http://www.theperthball.com/
The Royal Caledonian Ball, while outside of Scotland proper, is a prime example where white tie, mess dress or highland dress equivalent are required. The white tie and mess dress are well defined manors of dress and seem rigidly adhered to, while the highland interpretation seems to have a more broad range. Perhaps this may be due to the evolution of highland dress itself or to family traditions or in some cases regional preferences.
See link - password is "Reels"
https://dafjones.photoshelter.com/ga...000Y74xhcqGKd8

[RichardtheLarge]

No,no,NO! The black Barathea silver buttoned argyll(BBSBA) is fine for minor black tie events, but is physically not designed to be worn with a jabot, therefore quite unsuitable to be worn at white tie events.

Out of curiosity, is it the high collar of a Montrose or Sheriffmuir doublet that you feel is specifically missing when a jabot is paired with an Argyle or Prince Charlie?

More to the point, are the photos of Sean Connery in his Kinloch Coatee and jabot frustrating for this reason? Thanks for your thoughts.

[RichardtheLarge]

I am one of those that believes that white tie is not just wearing a white bow tie instead of a black one. I do not believe wearing lace jabot and cuffs denotes white tie.

To me white tie is only for those most formal of events. State dinners, the Noble prize awards and banquet, the opening night of the Vienna opera.
(I happened to witness first hand a man arrive at the Noble prize ceremony not in the proscribed uniform who was politly directed down the street to one of the hire stores, who stay open late, and to obtain the appropriate attire.)

To me white tie is a proscribed uniform. It is "White Tie and Tails". This means a tail coat and all of the appropriate accessories.

I am one of those who does not believe that there is a kilted equivilant to white tie. The only exception would be as the official representitive of Scotland at a state function where other heads of state are representig their countries in their National Dress.

So no, I'm sorry, I do not believe that an Argyle jacket is acceptable white tie attire.

I suppose I’m conflating “white tie” and “full dress” here, but I’m of the opinion that a gent in buckle brogues, tartan hose, kilt, doublet and jabot would look absolutely terrific at an event where people were otherwise mostly in Marcella ties, waistcoats and tails. I suppose that this is a function of my great love for uniqueness and individuality.

I’ve read, too, that at certain functions one risks being turned away if one appears out of the local standard formal dress, but I wonder if that’s really true today. It’s hard to imagine that an assembly from a country which uses National dress instead of the imported Western formalwear would be barred from the Nobel prizes or the Vienna State opera in 2018. There would be mutterings about “cultural imperialism” and “cultural insensitivity” nowadays, and I can imagine that scene starting a small row. To my mind, a ban on Highlandwear would be no exception in that situation.

My understanding is that, at least in the Edwardian and Victorian eras, a gent with a Highlander background would show up to dinner in his jabot and cuffs and be seated next to those in tails and white bow ties.

[Jock Scot]

Out of curiosity, is it the high collar of a Montrose or Sheriffmuir doublet that you feel is specifically missing when a jabot is paired with an Argyle or Prince Charlie?

More to the point, are the photos of Sean Connery in his Kinloch Coatee and jabot frustrating for this reason? Thanks for your thoughts.

I am not sure that I am familiar with the picture of Sean Connery that you mention. Is there any chance that you could show it?

Personally I do not think that the PC or the argyle jacket show off the jabot to best effect and yes, the Sheriffmuir and the Montrose jackets do.

As an aside, I do not think historical pictures of gentlemen in kilt attire are helpful in discussing traditional kilt attire. Interesting perhaps, but that is all.

[RichardtheLarge]

I am not sure that I am familiar with the picture of Sean Connery that you mention. Is there any chance that you could show it?

Personally I do not think that the PC or the argyle jacket show off the jabot to best effect and yes, the Sheriffmuir and the Montrose jackets do.

Yes, right here:
https://i2-prod.dailyrecord.co.uk/in...an-Connery.jpg
To be fair, I’ve seen him in states of arguable faux pax with highlandwear—a long tartan tie with his Coatee, for example. I’d suggest, though, that if the high collar or coverage of the chest with the jacket or vest is what is missed with the jabot, that an Argyle with a five button vest might be more suitable for a jabot than a Coatee or prince Charlie with a three button vest as pictured here. I suppose part of the trouble might just be the long association of Argyles with daywear nowadays.

What is your opinion on highlandwear as formalwear in general? Does anything seem amiss to you if people appear at a formal ball, for example, in a doublet, jabot, and kilt instead of white tie and tails?

[Steve Ashton]

While I fully understand that there are Highland balls, where those not in Highland wear will wear formal wear, these are highland wear specific formal events.

There are very few White tie events left in the world. Almost none in N. America outside of a state dinner at the White House. I have cited a few others around the world. But I think the wisest thing to do is pay attention to the invitation. If the invitation states "White Tie and Tails" respect the host and the solemnity of the event.

National Dress on an invitation does not mean "I am of Scottish descent so I can wear my kilt". It means you are attending as the official representative of a nation. If, for example, you are officially representing the country of India you would wear that countries' Formal National Dress. Either Achkan/Sherwani or Bandhgala.

If you want to truly follow the guidelines used in the UK "Debrett's" is the difinitive guide to etiquette. It is quite specific on what constitutes White Tie Dress Code.

(Please note that the kilt is mentioned as appropriate for certain Highland Balls.)

"WHITE TIE

White tie is also known as ‘ full evening dress’, ‘ full dress’, ‘evening dress’ or, informally, as ‘tails’. White tie is the most formal of dress codes and is not common today. Before the Second World War it was standard evening dress for gentlemen, as may be seen in period dramas on television.

Today white tie is worn in the evening at certain royal ceremonies and balls, and state and livery dinners. White tie may also be specified for formal evening weddings and for some charity balls. It is also the dress code for some Highland balls, for those men not entitled to wear the kilt. It is no longer seen at the theatre or opera, and opera cloaks and silk top hats, along with canes and white gloves, are now only seen on stage.

‘White tie’ will always be stated on the invitation itself. Many organisations hosting events will say ‘white or black tie’, as they are aware that the former may be difficult for some invitees.

White Tie: Men
– A black single-breasted tailcoat in black wool (barathea) or ultrafine herringbone with silk peaked lapels, often grosgrain (worn unbuttoned). The coat is shorter at the front than a morning coat.

– Black trousers with a natural taper and two lines of braid down the outside leg.

– A white marcella (cotton piqué) shirt with a starched detachable wing collar and double cuffs.

– Cufflinks and studs. The shirt will usually be closed with studs rather than buttons. These may be plain white or decorative.

– A low-cut, white marcella evening waistcoat (double or singlebreasted).

– A thin, white hand-tied marcella bow tie.

– Highly polished or patent black lace-up shoes, worn with black laces (traditionally ribbon) and black socks.

– In winter, a black overcoat and white silk scarf may be worn.

White Tie: Women
– Full-length, formal evening dresses. It is traditional, but not essential, to show décolletage. Shorter dresses or trousers, no matter how smart, are not acceptable.

– Jewellery can be striking; this is the time for the finest jewels and gems, including tiaras. Traditionally these are worn for the first time by brides, and subsequently by married women only. It is incorrect for young girls to wear tiaras on any occasion.

– Evening bags should be small and elegant.

Gloves
Long evening gloves are traditionally worn at balls and dinners when the dress code is ‘white tie’ but are no longer compulsory at many events. They work best with sleeveless dresses but older women may wear them with cap or short sleeves. With long sleeves it is better to dispense with gloves, rather than wear short ones. Gloves should be worn en route to an event, in a receiving line, when shaking hands and dancing. They are removed when eating (even a canapé) and at the dinner table – they should be taken off finger by finger and rested on the lap under the napkin.

Women’s Evening Coats
For formal evening events, daytime coats look out of place. A smart evening coat, cloak, pashmina or wrap in a suitable material is preferable.

Variations on White Tie
An alternative to white tie on certain occasions may be national costume, for example Indian, Chinese or Arabian. This will usually be stated on an invitation.

Certain societies or clubs may give balls at which their own evening dress coats are worn (usually coloured tail coats, red, blue or green, with special facings). These are worn with a white tie and waistcoat, but often with ordinary dinner jacket trousers. Non-member male guests, not entitled to the club coat, usually wear black tie.

The dress code ‘full-dress ceremonial’ is occasionally seen for very formal or state occasions. For evening this may usually be interpreted as white tie for civilians but it is important to ask and check with the host or organiser. For daytime events such as state funerals it can mean dress uniform for those in the services, robes for peers or judges, or particular vestments for clerics, and usually morning dress or simple business attire for others.

Decorations
If the dress code is white tie and the event is a royal or state occasion, or a very formal event in, say, the City, then the dress code may state ‘Evening Dress—Decorations’. It is correct to wear decorations in the presence of The Queen but very unusual to wear them at a private event or charity ball, however grand. It would generally be more of a mistake to wear them than not to do so.

If decorations are asked for, then knights and dames should wear the most senior chivalric orders to which they belong rather than all their decorations. Stars such as the Garter or Thistle are displayed on the left side of the evening coat or dress. Knights Grand Cross of an order may also wear a sash and badge. There are also medals that may be worn on a ribbon round the neck, just below the tie. Others may be worn as miniatures on a bar, and this is also usual when the dress code is black tie and decorations.

In practice, ex-service people are usually familiar with the wearing of medals, as are members of orders. If in doubt when attending a royal event then the best thing is to ask the Palace or relevant private secretary. It goes without saying that no one should wear decorations to which they are not entitled. Even as fancy dress these may give offence, for example to genuine veterans, so treat with care."

Quoted from Debrett's

I personally feel that wearing a kilt and calling it White Tie is disrespectful. Not only to the host, but to the others attending, and the purpose of the event.