Black tie and white tie for kilts?

[Highwayman]

To start, I'm a few weeks away from owning a USA Kilts Casual kilt in a family tartan, it'll be my first real tartan kilt. Coincidentally, last night I was being installed at a Masonic function and was able to wear white tie for the first time, having usually only worn black tie. Now that I'm able to wear white tie on a monthly basis and black tie is now more for social events, I'm wondering about possibly putting together kilt-based outfits for more open-minded events without the stricter dress codes. Googling it, I've had mixed accounts of what can be worn for black tie and white tie, including some statements that white tie for a kilt truly does not exist. Some even say the Prince Charlie, which to me looks to be a tuxedo if there ever was one, is actually casual and to look for a doublet.

Are there any official sources on where I can look into what I'd need to assemble these outfits?

[Jim Simmons]

I am certainly not a source for the correct wearing of the kilt but, the Black Tie Guide has a page that speaks some on both Black Tie and White Tie with the kilt. Might be a start until more knowledgeable Members speak.

Also, there is a thread here that shows examples of Black and White Tie wear.

http://www.blacktieguide.com/Supplemental/Scottish.htm

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...-attire-48691/

[The Wizard of BC]

I am one of those who believes that there is no kilt equivalent to White Tie.

White Tie events are very rare these days. State functions at the White House, Opening night of the Opera in Vienna and the Nobel Prize awards are some of the few true White Tie events.

If you ever receive an invitation to one of these events the way the invitation is worded will usually say "White Tie and Tails". This style of dress is almost as proscribed as a uniform.

Just because you wear a White Bow Tie does not fit the requirements of this form of dress.

Here is a photo of the way you are expected to dress for this level of event.


Prince Phillip, Duke of Edinburgh in White Tie and Tails.


The portion that says "And Tails" refers to the Tail Coat. Neither a Doublet nor a Prince Charlie are a suitable substitute for a tail coat. The tails of the Tail Coat reach down in back to the back of the knees.
This outfit also includes a White Silk Bow Tie, starched bib front Wing Color Shirt fastened with studs and a White Silk Waistcoat without Lapels.

The only time I can think that a kilt would be acceptable to one of these events is if the invitation specifies "Or National Dress". And then only if you are officially representing Scotland on state business.

The other way this is sometimes worded is "Top Hat and Tails". Think Fred Astaire.





WWII pretty well killed off the days of "Dressing for Dinner". In the days when gentlemen dressed in Black and White Tie, Black Tie was considered casual evening wear.
Most of the old photos some of our member like to show of Evening Highland Wear are for those events where the level of formality is actually Black Tie.
Today the tuxedo is the Black tie equivalent. When and where the Tuxedo was invented it was considered 'country casual evening wear'.

The Prince Charlie Coatee with its satin lapels is the kilt equivalent of the tuxedo. My advice to customers is to use the Prince Charlie ONLY when a tuxedo would be appropriate.

And just as with White Tie just because you put on a Black Bow Tie does not mean that you are dressed in "Black Tie".

There are still some who consider Black Tie to be suitable only for events after 6:00pm. Today the invitation would sometimes state the level of formality of the event.
There are some weddings held in the afternoon where the Tuxedo is specified but usually because they have not heard of a morning coat.

This is all my personal opinion of course. But I learned this back in the days when men still dressed this way so still consider it the way I would dress today.

And I'm very sorry, and mean no disrespect of Rocky, but I would not consider a USA Kilts Casual Model kilt as acceptable for either Black or White tie events.

[tpa]

Extract from Kinloch Anderson website:

White Tie Dinner
Coatee and Vest with black bow tie! Also the Regulation Doublet, Montrose Doublet, Sheriffmuir Jacket or Kenmore Jacket.

[kiltedtom]

Guess I am a real uneducated individual. I see no differences between white tie and black tie (other than the obvious colors). They both look equally dressed up and uncomfortable to me. They seem to harken back to days when individuals were only allowed to dress according to their status in society. And people were judged by the clothes instead of the person inside. I have seen some very spiffy looking men in kilts and formal regalia. If someone else does not like it, that is his or her issue.

I do not intend to insult anyone with my opinion here. I just think the world should be beyond such class distinctions. But, more likely, it never really will be.

Have a good time however you decide to dress.

Tom

[Highwayman]

My personal explanation of black tie versus white tie.

Black tie: You get to dress like James Bond.
White tie: You get to dress like the Monopoly Guy.

Coincidentally, I just summed up my personal motives for buying and wearing both outfits.

[Father Bill]

Well... I'll come off as a toff here, but it was by mutual agreement that people dress certain ways for certain occasions, and by doing so it was a sign of mutual respect. I admire mutual respect.

Showing up in jeans at a "lounge suit and tie" event is usually a sign of disrespect more than poverty. Similarly, showing up in black tie at a jeans and jumper event is equally disrespectful. It's a matter of respecting the wishes - usually of the host(s).

[MacLowlife]

H Man, the best and most important thing you need to know was buried somewhere above- white tie in a kilt is BLACK tie. Beyond that, being very dressed up in a kilt is generally dressed up enough.

My reading of your question is that you are wondering about the propriety of wearing kilt-based white tie. Or maybe you are wondering what that would entail. In either case, check out the One Kilt Ten Looks thread. As for appropriateness for your Masonic functions, you're probably better off consulting Masons on that point.

And yes, wearing white tie does set you apart from most of the population, but in what is generally thought of as a good way. If you are comfortable, what it does is make you look good. If you aren't comfortable, your clothes aren't going to help. And if you are a jerk, you are a jerk, regardless of how you are dressed.


Like most men nowadays, the Monopoly guy wears a range of outfits, some of them true white tie, some of them other forms of dress. If you want to look like a cartoon, he is probably a good model. Otherwise, the very best thing to do is to dress like the guy who has been going to the event for a few years.

[BadenochWolf]

I'm a yank, but my home lodge has Scots heritage going all the way back to its founding in 1775. We kilt for degree work and other big functions, but it's only ever Argylls and Prince Charlies. For one thing, even our grand line is usually in tuxedo, rather than white tie.

The photo below was from the night of a Grand Lodge visitation and third degree. As you can tell, even when you tell people dress codes, you get some outliers.

4511_88345062559_495689_n.jpg

[OC Richard]

Whatever the official rules are, I wore a white tie at my wedding.



A Prince Charlie is obviously nearly identical to a tailcoat, only having shorter tails, as the kilt demands. The Prince Charlie appears to be a 20th century invention and is merely a tailcoat with added silver buttons, cuffs, and shortened tails.

Actual tailcoats have often been worn with the kilt, after having the tails shortened. This did not change the appearance of the front of the coat in the least.

With either sort of coat, the kilt can be worn as part of a visual equivalent to White Tie and Tails, if not a verbal/technical equivalent.

Same coat. Same shirt. Same waistcoat. Same tie. From the waist up, identical. From the waist down, yes kilts are not trousers.