Clan Crest Badge Affixed to a Day Sporran..

[Tobus]

Guys, it's as simple as this: if someone likes the looks of a military sporran but wants to be respectful enough to remove the military insignia, then they will probably replace it with some sort of civilian insignia in order to maintain the same overall look. For those of us here in the US, where civilians don't typically wear any sort of badges or pins on a regular basis, a clan badge is the easiest and most obvious substitution. They are sold everywhere that carries Scottish paraphernalia. And if a person has a clan affiliation, there's no question in their mind about whether it's appropriate to wear that badge. So that's typically what they will choose.

And yes, it is probably more common in the US to wear military surplus clothing and goods with civilian attire than it is in the UK. This is a cultural thing going back at least as far as the Vietnam War era, as I'm sure you know. It can take many forms, from a method of protesting to a simple statement of personal style. But it's not unusual at all. And for something as benign as a sporran - especially a simple brown leather sporran that isn't overtly militaristic - it's really quite understandable.

[ThistleDown]

I guess so, Tobus. It's just that, to us, the wearing of a bonnet badge on a sporran seems out of place. The belted crests are sold all over Scotland, too, and many Scottish makers of sporrans are sticking them on for the export market. Bill is Canadian. Canadians have traditionally thought more like Scots (his dad's statement about the Farquharson tartan bears this out) than like Americans, but even in Canada there seems to be a proliferation of otherwise finely crafted sporrans with belted crests added. The strangeness part is expanded even further when the belted crest is not recognised for what it is, a symbol of allegiance to a particular individual. I will take a guess that Bill's suggested use of the belted demi-lion and sword is, in fact, a statement of allegiance to Farquharson of Invercauld as his chief. Am I correct, Bill?

[Famous Willie]

I guess so, Tobus. It's just that, to us, the wearing of a bonnet badge on a sporran seems out of place. The belted crests are sold all over Scotland, too, and many Scottish makers of sporrans are sticking them on for the export market. Bill is Canadian. Canadians have traditionally thought more like Scots (his dad's statement about the Farquharson tartan bears this out) than like Americans, but even in Canada there seems to be a proliferation of otherwise finely crafted sporrans with belted crests added. The strangeness part is expanded even further when the belted crest is not recognised for what it is, a symbol of allegiance to a particular individual. I will take a guess that Bill's suggested use of the belted demi-lion and sword is, in fact, a statement of allegiance to Farquharson of Invercauld as his chief. Am I correct, Bill?

Thank you Thistledown and Jock for your advice. Yes, I just want to make sure I am wearing the Highland wear as intended. If you look close in the photos I shared earlier, that is actually the Fraser of Lovat that I have resting on the Sporran, for emphasis and to see what a Clan Crest Badge may look like on the Sporran. Once the Clan Farquharson kilt arrives and I am wearing it, I will be getting the Farquharson Cap Badge to wear properly on a Bonnet. I decided against the wearing on the Sporran.

I do want to wear the Kilt properly, right now all I have is the Utility Kilt, which I doubt I will be wearing much after the Clan Kilt comes.. Where it is the Utility/Cargo Kilt, I mix and match, I do like to wear hose and flashes, and will wear a Tartan Tie with a nice shirt. I do hate the Scrunched Socks and Boots look with a T Shirt, even with the Utility Kilt. I find that look very untidy, and sloppy..

I did have an Uncle on Mum's side as well as another who was in the Merchant Navy during WWII. My Dad's Brother was in the Royal Navy as a Career Man starting before WWII, . That is my Closest connection to the Services, no one from my immediate family or myself was in the services, so I guess I have no right to wear anything military, with the exception of a Poppy come Remembrance Day..

I do have a question for you about wearing other Tartan. I know it is a big no-no with some to wear another Clan Tartan, even one's Mum's family side., if one is wearing their Father's Tartan. But what is your own personal feeling on wearing your Mum's Family Tartan, or from her descendants?. And what about wearing a Non Clan Tartan, like the Nova Scotia Tartan, where I was born and raised in Nova Scotia. Or Canada's Official Maple Leaf Tartan.

Thanks,

Bill

[plaid preacher]

Hi Bill, I'm going to wade into this discussion with a certain amount of apprehension, because I have been around here long enough to know this is a minefield, and there is no right answer, but one heck of a lot of opinions. I think there is one important question that you have yet to settle in your own mind - and that is just how traditional are you/do you wish your rig to be? As Thistledown mentioned there is a school of Traditional Highland Civilian Dress, and if you wish to adhere to it, they would say that the badge on your sporran is not necessary and therefore should probably be avoided. When you are in your kilt you are wearing 8 yards of tartan fabric which declares who you belong to. IF people don't see that, they won't see a wee badge. Perhaps you might want to take a look at the Tartan Tuesday threads from Toronto. While you will see variations of order of dress, most of us are of the Traditional School and I doubt you will find one clan crest! I don't think you would say that any are not dressed to the nines, or look incomplete. Certainly here on this site you will find all sorts. That's what I like about this site. Everyone has a place. Occasionally it gets a little messy, and it does not mean that we do not disagree, but I appreciate the variations. But you must know what look you are going for, or you will be tossed to and fro. I know when I first joined 5 years ago and was awaiting my first kilt, I was looking at all sorts of bling with my clan crest on it. On any given day when I am kilted you cannot find my clan crest, save for the rare days I wear a lid.

To your specific question, I would not add your crest to that particular sporran. It already has decoration on it, in the form of embossing and studs, and one of the studs which falls right at the bottom of the crest looks as if it is going to interfere. IF you want a sporran with your clan crest on it, buy one ready-made, or pick up a plain sporran on e-bay. They are readily available, quite reasonable, and the military surplus ones from the UK even come with the holes conveniently placed for you. Just because you have a badge doesn't mean you always have to wear it.

[Famous Willie]

Hi Bill, I'm going to wade into this discussion with a certain amount of apprehension, because I have been around here long enough to know this is a minefield, and there is no right answer, but one heck of a lot of opinions. I think there is one important question that you have yet to settle in your own mind - and that is just how traditional are you/do you wish your rig to be? As Thistledown mentioned there is a school of Traditional Highland Civilian Dress, and if you wish to adhere to it, they would say that the badge on your sporran is not necessary and therefore should probably be avoided. When you are in your kilt you are wearing 8 yards of tartan fabric which declares who you belong to. IF people don't see that, they won't see a wee badge. Perhaps you might want to take a look at the Tartan Tuesday threads from Toronto. While you will see variations of order of dress, most of us are of the Traditional School and I doubt you will find one clan crest! I don't think you would say that any are not dressed to the nines, or look incomplete. Certainly here on this site you will find all sorts. That's what I like about this site. Everyone has a place. Occasionally it gets a little messy, and it does not mean that we do not disagree, but I appreciate the variations. But you must know what look you are going for, or you will be tossed to and fro. I know when I first joined 5 years ago and was awaiting my first kilt, I was looking at all sorts of bling with my clan crest on it. On any given day when I am kilted you cannot find my clan crest, save for the rare days I wear a lid.

To your specific question, I would not add your crest to that particular sporran. It already has decoration on it, in the form of embossing and studs, and one of the studs which falls right at the bottom of the crest looks as if it is going to interfere. IF you want a sporran with your clan crest on it, buy one ready-made, or pick up a plain sporran on e-bay. They are readily available, quite reasonable, and the military surplus ones from the UK even come with the holes conveniently placed for you. Just because you have a badge doesn't mean you always have to wear it.

Hi Plaid Preacher:

I want to be true to the wear. I decided earlier against affixing the Clan Badge to my Sporran. One main reason is I don't feel like putting holes in it and marring it, and where I paid a few hard earned dollars for it, want to keep it intact.. . I have decided to leave the badge on the cap, and only occasionally want to wear it there. Do want to wear the Farquharson Kilt Pin, and where there is a bit of green in the Tartan, decided that Green Hose would be in order. As for the flashes, haven't decided if I want to wear black or navy blue, as there is a wee bit of both in the squares of the tartan. I was told the Store is throwing in a pair of Clan Farquharson Tartan Flashes cut out of the same fabric as the Kilt, they would look only good with white hose, and I don't believe they are traditional.. Figured either a Black or White Shirt would be appropriate, and whether I wear my Farquharson Tartan Tie, or a Solid Tie, I will try both and see what is best. I know a Bow Tie is for more Black Tie events. I've seen photos of fellows in a Tartan Kilt with a Jacobite Shirt, and that didn't look too bad.. The Prince Charlie Jacket and 3 Button Waistcoat is out, even though I can get a very nice one for half the cost, which was made at Lochcarron, A Big expense for something I may only wear once or twice in my life. Decided against the Fly Plaid, though a Day Plaid might be OK. Though I think, do I really want to look like Katherine Hepburn in Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?.. In a couple of her scenes, she wore a Scarf on her left shoulder, like one would wear a Day Plaid..

I have only been here on the group for about a couple of months, and have already found there are many different opinions. I don't take offense to any when they are offered, and do appreciate the advice. I've always been interested in my Scottish Heritage, and as I delve into it heavy, and trying to do things correctly, I am finding my brain is in overload with all the info. It's like reading from the Scriptures, once you get your question answered, you end up creating more questions than when you first asked....

Thanks again PP, do appreciate your advice.. Would you have a couple of links you could share of the Tartan Tuesday threads that I could take a look at.

Bill...

[bodhran4me]

Thanks again PP, do appreciate your advice.. Would you have a couple of links you could share of the Tartan Tuesday threads that I could take a look at.

Bill...

Many of the early pictures are missing , likely due to the photo bucket issues but later threads still have pictures up.
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...oto-log-87610/

[Jock Scot]

It's a free world where most of us here live so we do have the privilege of having choices, but just so you know if you want to wear your kilt in a traditional manner then you do need to be aware of a few things. Things to avoid , if you like.

The matching of colours.... a very modern and a particularly American thing to do if these sorts of discussions are anything to go by..... is almost studiously avoided by the traditional kilt wearer, so matching ones shirt and hose,for example, is not at all necessary. If anything ends up matching then it's more by accident than anything else.

Tartan ties are not usually worn with a tartan kilt.

Black shirts are a no no for many. They are worn with the kilt these days but many of my generation have historical reservations about them. White shirts are fine for formal(dress) occasions,but loud(heavy) plain colours are not usually considered traditional by many tradionalists. Think about tattersall patterns, or small gingham checks, for example.

There are many threads here going back a a few years which describe people with traditional kilt attire who "choose" their attire for the day by reaching into the wardrobe and wearing the first shirt, tie, hose that comes to hand with no thought at all to matching. Sadly many of those very useful discussions were held before the " traditional kilt" section was born so they may be difficult to find, but try and find them if you can as they might be very useful to you.

Now you know!

[OC Richard]

Taking the long view, over a couple hundred years of Highland Dress, in the 18th and early 19th centuries you didn't seen these "Clan crest badges" worn.

Then around the mid-19th century they suddenly became something of a fad.

You'll see gents' outfits with these crests worn on the bonnet, sporran top, kilt pin, plaid brooch, sgian, dirk, and who knows what all.

Here's the most excessive outfit I can find in The Highlanders Of Scotland (1860s). With the fellow on the left, note the Clan crest strap & buckle kilt pin, plaid brooch, and bonnet badge, and the crest without buckle & strap on the sporran cantle. I'd wager the crest appears on his dirk too.



But in the nature of fashion this crest-craze waned and by the early 20th century you'll see them confined mostly to bonnets.

Wearing crests on nearly everything came roaring back in the late 20th century and is still with us for better or for worse.

Here's a current example, a Clan crest set offered by Ian Grant of Edinburgh. There are even tiny crests on the sporran chain!



Personally I'm not a fan.

A note about kilt pins: You'll see above in The Highlanders Of Scotland a round Clan crest strap & buckle badge worn as a kilt pin. Seems like that was the most common sort of kilt pin then. Evidently the sword-type kilt pins got popular later.

Here's a Grade One pipe band, Boghall & Bathgate, who wear fullsize Clan crest cap badges on their kilts. I dislike kilt pins generally and I certainly wouldn't want to wear a large heavy cap badge on my kilt. Whether they're aware of it or not, they're a throwback to the style of the mid-19th century.



About wearing badges on leather Day sporrans, in the Army the badge is worn on the body of leather sporrans, not the flap:



However there's a civilian pipe band, Saint Lawrence O Toole, who had large ornate badges made up which they wear both on their Glengarries and on their sporrans. As you see they've affixed the badges to the flaps rather than the body of the sporran.



NB Kenneth MacLeay's amazing eye for detail is on display in the painting above. Note the dirk-belt and cross-belt of the guy on the left: you can see there was some sort of varnish on the leather which has mostly come off over the years. I've seen a number of very old belts just like that.

[Famous Willie]

It's a free world where most of us here live so we do have the privilege of having choices, but just so you know if you want to wear your kilt in a traditional manner then you do need to be aware of a few things. Things to avoid , if you look like.

The matching of colours.... a very modern and a particularly American thing to do if these sorts of discussions are anything to go by..... is almost studiously avoided by the traditional kilt wearer, so matching ones shirt and hose,for example, is not at all necessary. If anything ends up matching then it's more by accident than anything else.

Tartan ties are not usually worn with a tartan kilt.

Black shirts are a no no for many. They are worn with the kilt these days but many of my generation have historical reservations about them. White shirts are fine for formal(dress) occasions,but loud(heavy) plain colours are not usually considered traditional by many tradionalists. Think about tattersall patterns, or small gingham checks, for example.

There are many threads here going back a a few years which describe people with traditional kilt attire who "choose" their attire for the day by reaching into the wardrobe and wearing the first shirt, tie, hose that comes to hand with no thought at all to matching. Sadly many of those very useful discussions were held before the " traditional kilt" section was born so they may be difficult to find, but try and find them if you can as they might be very useful to you.

Now you know!

Thank you Jock, really appreciate the reply. What about having the Shirt match the Flashes or the Tied Garter if one chooses to wear one, and wearing hose to match the Square in the Tartan. I read somewhere that this can be done.

Bill.

[Famous Willie]

Taking the long view, over a couple hundred years of Highland Dress, in the 18th and early 19th centuries you didn't seen these "Clan crest badges" worn.

Then around the mid-19th century they suddenly became something of a fad.

You'll see gents' outfits with these crests worn on the bonnet, sporran top, kilt pin, plaid brooch, sgian, dirk, and who knows what all.

Here's the most excessive outfit I can find in The Highlanders Of Scotland (1860s). With the fellow on the left, note the Clan crest strap & buckle kilt pin, plaid brooch, and bonnet badge, and the crest without buckle & strap on the sporran cantle. I'd wager the crest appears on his dirk too.



But in the nature of fashion this crest-craze waned and by the early 20th century you'll see them confined mostly to bonnets.

Wearing crests on nearly everything came roaring back in the late 20th century and is still with us for better or for worse.

Here's a current example, a Clan crest set offered by Ian Grant of Edinburgh. There are even tiny crests on the sporran chain!



Personally I'm not a fan.

A note about kilt pins: You'll see above in The Highlanders Of Scotland a round Clan crest strap & buckle badge worn as a kilt pin. Seems like that was the most common sort of kilt pin then. Evidently the sword-type kilt pins got popular later.

Here's a Grade One pipe band, Boghall & Bathgate, who wear fullsize Clan crest cap badges on their kilts. I dislike kilt pins generally and I certainly wouldn't want to wear a large heavy cap badge on my kilt. Whether they're aware of it or not, they're a throwback to the style of the mid-19th century.



About wearing badges on leather Day sporrans, in the Army the badge is worn on the body of leather sporrans, not the flap:



However there's a civilian pipe band, Saint Lawrence O Toole, who had large ornate badges made up which they wear both on their Glengarries and on their sporrans. As you see they've affixed the badges to the flaps rather than the body of the sporran.



NB Kenneth MacLeay's amazing eye for detail is on display in the painting above. Note the dirk-belt and cross-belt of the guy on the left: you can see there was some sort of varnish on the leather which has mostly come off over the years. I've seen a number of very old belts just like that.

Thank you OC for sharing the photos, I am now getting a better idea of how to wear the Kilt,

Bill