What about black and red diced hose with not MacGregor?

[AKScott]

I am asking because I don't know.

I was looking at diced hose lately for a Clan MacOnion kilt. Aesthetically I think black and red diced hose look great with the Clan MacOnion red sett. Mostly red, got some black and dark green in it, no problem, why not.

Here is where I have just enough knowledge to be troublesome. To my inexpert trying to learn eye, the only difference between black and red diced hose and Clan MacGregor bias cut cadadh is one is knit and the other is sewn up from woven cloth.

Is this an exception that proves the rule that patterns from different clans should not otherwise be worn together?

Or should only MacGregor's and a few close other clans wear black and red diced?

I did check my history book, the MacOnions and the MacGregors never did get along with each other back in the day. Because of that I am inclined to skip the diced red and black hose with the Clan MacOnion kilt.

If I had bought them would that have been an enormous social gaffe, or just another foolish American, or are red/black diced hose fair game for any sett?

Thanks.

[JSFMACLJR]

I am asking because I don't know.

are red/black diced hose fair game for any sett?

Thanks.

Yes they are. Don't over-think this, relax, and don't worry.

[McMurdo]

Wear them they will be fine with any number of tartans.

[Donnachaidh Drumair]

Here is where I have just enough knowledge to be troublesome.

I can relate to that, though I'm still a beginner here. In any case, I've always gotten the impression (for whatever that's worth) that the basic diced were fair game for all.

Don't know what the thoughts are of clashing, but my sett is red and I was thinking (read: fantasizing) of getting a pair of these someday in the hazy future.

I wouldn't think the similarity should cause any problems, but I do very much appreciate this much attention and care to such historical detail.

[AKScott]

I wouldn't think the similarity should cause any problems, but I do very much appreciate this much attention and care to such historical detail.

And therein is exactly the crux of the biscuit.

I was originally shocked to find it is quite OK two wear two different tartan patterns with the same outfit - as long as they are from the same clan. I actually favorited this thread, my wife has still not quite come to terms with the idea. After you have absorbed the pictures, cogitate on the simple text in post #27.

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...-modern-62184/

However, another recurring theme is that it is absolutely not OK to wear two different tartans from two different clans with the same outfit.

In general the users here who actually live in Scotland are, mmm, suprised that many of us in the states own kilts from more than one clan. As poster child number #54 I have two wool tanks in my personal clan setts, and I have a PV (PolyViscose, a synthetic machine washable fiber that really isn't very much like wool at all) knockabout Stillwater in Black Watch, and another PV knockabout in Hunting Stewart.

In general actual Scottish citizens wouldn't dream of owning a kilt in a tartan other than their own clan, unless they were in the military or a pipe band.

The general tone of frequent question is, "Well on my Mom's side I am from Clan MacPickle, but my dad's uncle married a MacOnion, and I want to wear a Clan MacPickle kilt with a Clan MacOnion badge for a kilt pin to honor them both, whaddya think?"

Well, the Scots in general are quite gracious about the fact that they are appalled. In their world view one individual can only belong to one clan. You wanna claim MacPickle, great. You want to claim MacOnion, great.

No man can serve two masters.

Like I said, just enough knowledge to be dangerous. I was looking at diced hose and then realized black and red diced is Clan MacGregor. There are less than a dozen setts I can absolutely recognize for certain, but MacGregor is one of the easy ones.

So far I have two North Americans telling me to wear what I want. But the little voice in the back of my head is saying a gentleman never unintenionally gives offense.

So I am asking. Red and black diced is my third choice, but it also the least expensive of the top three choices I currently have for new formal hose.

[Paul Henry]

I think the point you are missing is that red/black diced hose is exactly that, it is red/black diced hose, it's not actually actually anyone's clan tartan , and as such can be worn with any number of tartans, without causing any offence, or creating any problems,as many of us have said on earlier of your postings, you really are over thinking these things. As Jock would say ( and many of us as well) just go to to wardrobe and put on whatever ( almost) comes to hand and don't worry!

[Donnachaidh Drumair]

I will probably horrify a few Scottish nationals/purists in that it is not without the realm that I would entertain the idea of wearing other families' tartans in my ancestry (at again, some unspecified hazy future date), but I would never consider mixing symbols of more than one clan at once. Thus I understand the concern.

I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the Atholl Highlanders, which I should know more about as an aspiring Donnachaidh! Wow, somehow they totally make that work.

Like I said, just enough knowledge to be dangerous. I was looking at diced hose and then realized black and red diced is Clan MacGregor. There are less than a dozen setts I can absolutely recognize for certain, but MacGregor is one of the easy ones.

Are we talking about a Rob Roy and a simple black/red diced hose here? I just want to make sure. Because in either case, I would imagine the connection incidental, or if one existed, it is so lost to history, having become so generic, as to abrogate that taboo. A cadadh (I had to do an xmarks search for that one) might be a different story. I'll not even venture into that territory.

I'd wait on the experts, of course. I'm as interested to know anything more on this as you.

[AKScott]

Are we talking about a Rob Roy and a simple black/red diced hose here?

Rob Roy is a less correct name for a sett correctly known as Clan MacGregor. It is equal parts red and black in a pattern that looks just like red and black diced hose, or if you prefer just like what is known as gingham in the US:

http://www.lochcarron.com/tartanstro...y_ancient.html

I'd wait on the experts, of course. I'm as interested to know anything more on this as you.

Well, paulhenry is an actual kiltmaker who lives in the UK, he knows his stuff and he is calling me out for continuing to overthink this. To me that is a big deal that he noticed I had already been tutt-tutted by someone else.

On the other hand, I have another current thread open in another tab....this was posted on 1-4-2012 at 0448AM, unknown timezone but not twenty years ago:

This [other thing, not specifically black and red diced hose] is precisely why the wearing of different Clan tartans and badges are best avoided. It is just one of those "niceties" that the Scots have developed in the last couple of centuries to avoid inter-clan upset in more civilised times and occasions.

So there is the recurring theme again. If you are going to wear a clan tartan, pick one clan and one clan only.

If paulhenry says red and black diced are just hose, well, they are just hose. I don't doubt him.

But I don't think I am going to buy the hose either. I think I would rather find something else with less risk of causing unintended offense to someone less informed than paulhenry.

[macwilkin]

But I don't think I am going to buy the hose either. I think I would rather find something else with less risk of causing unintended offense to someone less informed than paulhenry.

I wear red and black diced hose with my formal rig, and I can't say I've ever had this happen to me. I wouldn't worry about it.

T.

[ForresterModern]

Clan tartans are one specific thing that are best not mixed at all unless they are different setts or color ways of the same clan (approved clan tartans). The highlander way, one person one clan allegiance, one tartan (or limited collection of that clan's approved tartans) in kilt and/or other tartan accessories, one clan's other non-tartan clan identifying accoutrements (cap badge, kilt pin, lapel pin, etc...).
Diced hose are not clan specific (to the best of my knowledge) regardless of whatever two colors are involved in that dicing. Red and black diced hose are probably the most ubiquitous of all color combinations available in diced hose, and despite their apparent similarity to any tartan they are not related, although through military unit designations some diced color combos are more commonly seen with certain tartans that were used for military unit standard uniforms, this use of tartan is for military conformity rather than clan allegiance purposes.
Any color combo of diced hose can be worn with any tartan IMHO although certain combos may be more appealing than others from a stylistic standpoint, the Highlander way saying only that diced hose (probably simply because of their relatively higher cost and seemingly dressier appearance than solid color hose) are better reserved, in general, for special occasions or dressier events than for daily wear usage, but this is by no means absolute. Certainly not as absolute as not simultaneously wearing items identifying distinctly different clans such as clan tartans and badges and such.
We outlanders are typically less directly attached by time and mixed heritage to a single clan, and more likely to desire to "honor" more than one family/clan name in our family tree other than our strict paternal lineage (the highland way) by owning and wearing multiple clan tartans, but we should IMHO not mix clan identifiers in simultaneous wearing.
As my lowland family had no tartan until late in the 20th century, although I sport both tartans of my modern day clan, I also sport multiple versions of Douglas clan tartans, as historically that was the major regional clan with which my family was most typically affiliated, and if my family ever wore tartan in the old days it likely would have been Douglas or none. Otherwise I typically stick to district or fashion tartans of no historic clan affiliation.