traditional vs. classic

**CMcG** · 28th January 10, 07:31 PM

"Traditional Highland Dress The place to talk about traditionally made kilts and classic highland apparel and style."

I understand traditional to mean beliefs and customs that are passed down from generation to generation. This involves preservation through reproduction of the tradition.

I understand classic to mean something that is of enduring value and that meets definitive standards. This involves older, model examples but can also include new ones that are different in some way while maintaining classic values.

To the rabble I'd like to submit some thoughts for discussion:

In highland apparel and style, what is truly classic and what is traditional? Are they the same or different?

What are the sources and influences of your concept of classic?

Where does your knowledge of tradition come from i.e. who passed it down to you, who passed it down to the person who passed it down, etc?

How does a site like XMTS contribute to the maintenance or alteration of traditions and concepts of classic?

**Paul** · 28th January 10, 07:55 PM

I am Scottish but I am not aware of my forefathers ever having worn kilts! My concept of what is traditional in Highland Attire simply developed through using Xmarks... otherwise I'd be clueless about everything.

I would say many developed trends within Highland attire can be considered classic, though not traditional. Such as a large number of kilt-wearers in the early 20th Century wore large horse and goat hair sporrans with shiny cantles for daywear. I would consider this more classic than traditional, though, I feel it evolved out of tradition.

I feel a lot of modern pleating styles - including that of Scottish regiments is very much classic, though, some are not traditional. They have developed through the need for something a little more practical; just as many concepts of kilts and accessories have.

**ChattanCat** · 28th January 10, 08:25 PM

Traditional depends on the time period. What was worn before the ban on kilts ~1700's? Kilt were banned, before, little is known. We have seen that four yard kilts made sense, low yardage, lowered cost. 8 yard kilts were of the post ban kilts and the yardage grew to 8 yards. I digress, today, we have 4 and 8 yard kilts and a few great kilts.

**CMcG** · 28th January 10, 08:36 PM

As far as time period goes, historical kilts are certainly a fascinating topic but I'm more concerned with tradition as it stands today. The 20th and 21st centuries are most appropriate for this as the bearers of tradition are either still alive or are within living memory.

That being said, if there are members of the rabble who have been strongly influenced by photos, paintings, or documents from older sources, I'm interested to know their thoughts as well!

**Panache** · 28th January 10, 08:43 PM

"Classic" in fashion to me means those things that have stood the test of time, they are timeless garments that look as good today as they did when they first originated.

Tartan doublets, while very sharp, very bold, and very cool, are traditional but not classic. They are too far from what the mainstream considers "The Look" for Highland attire.

White hose and fly plaids while in fashion now have yet to achieve "classic" status. They have been around better than 25 years but only time will tell if they will still be worn or seen as good looking 50 years from now.

Will the pin stripe kilt suits of Howie Nicholsby (which I personally love) make the cut or be seen in the same light as the "Miami Vice look" of the early eighties?

XMTS explores the traditional, the classic, and the cutting edge.

We promote it all and inform the world of all the kilted options out there.

In the end it is up to the individual to make the choice what they like, and only Time will declare which looks last and which looks will remain confined to their respective eras.

Cheers

Jamie :ootd:

**OC Richard** · 29th January 10, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by CMcG

In highland apparel and style, what is truly classic and what is traditional? Are they the same or different?

What are the sources and influences of your concept of classic?

Great questions! Because I've discovered that over the years, as my sources have broadened, I've had to reevaluate some of my concepts.

My first source was a catalogue from a Highland Dress outfitter which I got around 1974. Ooooh how I gazed at those B&W photos of all the different styles of sporrans, different types of jackets (Montrose, Regulation, tweed day, and many more), and all the old-fashioned types of kilt pins etc etc.

At that time 'casual kilts' and all the neo-Celtic and neo-Culloden etc etc stuff didn't exist and the 'traditional' modes of Highland Dress held sway: Day Dress, Evening Dress, and military-style dress each with its proprietary shoes, hose, sporran, jacket, and headgear. It just didn't do to mix things up!

I followed suit and had several Highland Dress outfits which respected those traditional modes:

I got really into Highland Dress and got every book I could on the subject including such classics as Old Irish and Highland Dress etc.

Then... all of my preconceptions about the "right" and the "wrong" about Highland Dress were blown away when I got a copy of The Highlanders of Scotland, fifty-odd extremely detailed portraits of men in Highland Dress painted in the 1860's. Highland Dress had so much more vitality, variety, and plasticity then! How dull and monollithic our modern dress looks by comparison!

More recently I've begun collecting a large number of vintage (c1860 to c1930) photos of men in Highland Dress. These, combined with The Highlanders of Scotland, made me realise that the set-in-stone Modes of Highland Dress that I came to know in the 1970's didn't really exist until, it seems, after WWI.

In the end my current "eye" for what's traditional/classic is formed by those four influences: "tradtitional Highland Dress" as it was known in the 1970's, books on the history of Highland Dress, The Highlanders of Scotland, and vintage photos.

**Riverkilt** · 29th January 10, 06:43 AM

I also enjoy the old pics and paintings. And, I enjoy the cutting edge sometimes.

From looking at the old pics and old paintings methinks perhaps folks just dressed in what felt right to them at the time. Without the Internet, phones, or television it for sure would have been more difficult to consult any fashion experts of the time or for any fashion experts to expound on their opinions.

And, I'm guessing the women in their lives had a lot to do with sewing up their garments and telling them how to dress too.

Freedom is fun!

**HeathBar** · 29th January 10, 08:19 AM

Traditional vs. Classic

What I see as traditional are the materials used in the making of kilts, jackets, etc...
What I see as classic is the style in which these garments are made.

100% worsted wool in a tartan is what is traditional for kilts. The 8yd, hand stitched, knife pleated kilt will always be classic style of kilt. Sure its not as old as other styles, but in its 150 odd year existance it has become the "standard". And I think that is what makes it classic.

For daywear jackets and waistcoats, tweed or other rough textured wools is traditional. The two button jacket with gauntlet cuffs and a five button waistcoat is classic.

For evening wear, fine woolens or velvet is traditional. The Regulation, Montrose, Kenmore, and Sherrifmuir are classic. Sorry, I just don't see the Argyll or PC as classic.

Frankly, when it comes to evening dress here in the US, most folks look like they stepped out of a Celtic Croft or Scottish Lion catalog. I think if we were to attend a ball in the Highlands, we would truely see what is traditional and classic.

**CMcG** · 29th January 10, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by OC Richard

<snip>
My first source was a catalogue from a Highland Dress outfitter which I got around 1974. Ooooh how I gazed at those B&W photos of all the different styles of sporrans, different types of jackets (Montrose, Regulation, tweed day, and many more), and all the old-fashioned types of kilt pins etc etc.

Originally Posted by HeathBar

<snip>

Frankly, when it comes to evening dress here in the US, most folks look like they stepped out of a Celtic Croft or Scottish Lion catalog. I think if we were to attend a ball in the Highlands, we would truely see what is traditional and classic.

This brings up an interesting issue, which is the influence of retailers and rentals on the perception of tradition...

**cavscout** · 29th January 10, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by OC Richard

What a great picture. I like this look. I'd prefer a bit more sag in the plaid across the chest and less hanging down in front, but in general, this looks great to me. Function and style. The bottom of the kilt looks interesting also. Appears to be a solid with a design along the bottom. Very unique photo. Thanks for posting.