Another "White Tie" Question

[Freelancer]

I've just read a comment in a recent thread stating that a Price Charles Coatee should not be worn to a white tie event. I've no such event to attend, but I am curious as to the reason. It's been my understanding that the PC was designed as the Highland equivalent of the standard tuxedo with tails, which is de rigueur for white tie. Hopefully, someone can explain the nuances involved in these conventions. Thanks in advance!

[Downunder Kilt]

The PC is indeed the equivalent of the standard tuxedo but not that of the dress coat/tailcoat, which is the standard dress of white tie

[Father Bill]

PC is black tie. Doesn't work with white tie which is a step up. In Saxon wear, white tie infers and tails.

[cck]

I won't argue with Downunder's response, but the last time I wore tails was for my wedding nearly 54 years ago. In the US white tie events are very rare. I attend quite a few black tie affairs and I am noticing an increasing number of men who do not adhere even to the black tie request. This annoys me, as does the general lowering of social customs. I think this has been discussed previously on this site and I am certainly not advocating it. Were I to be invited to a white tie event, I would wear my PC and a white tie. While this may not be exactly correct, you would stand out as being well dressed, although a bit differently. No one would object and in the unusual case they did, you could show them your little tails.

[MacCathmhaoil]

A PC is at the low end of the white tie spectrum, at least to my understanding. There are no shortage of them seen at the Royal Caledonian Ball however regardless of it being a white tie event (according to their dress code). I know some do substitute a tartan or a white Marcella vest/waistcoat and tie to up it's formality and many see that as suitable change. I have a velvet Balmoral and a black barathea Sheriffmuir for white tie, I don't own a PC as my black Argyy fills that niche.
I honestly don't think most notice or really care about the splitting of hairs on this one.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I have in front of me a catalog from Fraser Ross in Glasgow (c.1945?) which has this to say about the Prince Charlie coatee: "Illustrated is the Prince Charlie Coatee, popular for Full Dress and Evening Wear." So yes, the Prince Charlie may be worn with white tie.

[cck]

Since the subject has come up, how often are "white tie" events held in various countries? And, are they truly "white tie"?

[Steve Ashton]

There is a lot of misunderstanding about "White Tie". To many it simply means that they wear a white bow tie in place of a black one. I'm sorry but this is simply not correct.

There are very few White Tie events in today's world. A few examples would be The Noble Prize ceremonies, State dinners at The White House or 10 Downing St. and The opening of the Vienna Opera.

The Noble Awards have a very strict dress code. The invitation specifies "White Tie and Tails". This includes gray kid gloves & white silk scarf along with the tail coat. I'm sorry but if someone were to show up in a Kilt you WOULD be turned away and directed to one of the rental establishments down the street. They actually stay open just in case someone shows up dressed improperly.

If you have an invitation to a State Dinner, and are not representing the Country of Scotland in an official capacity, a kilt would not be acceptable.

If I may quote from "A Gentleman's Guide To Evening Wear (Second Edition)

"White Tie requires full dress which, as its name implies, is the highest order of male civilian attire.

With a patrician pedigree dating back to the English Regency its rules are as rigid as its clothes are resplendent. The dress code is also extremely rare these days as it is associated with only the most ceremonious of occasions.
Therefore should you find yourself fortunate enough to receive a White Tie invitation it is vital you pay attention to detail as this will likely be your sole opportunity to get it right. While the less formal Black Tie code provides leeway to channel a variety of looks from 1930s movie stars to modern day superspies, White Tie is a virtual uniform that brooks little deviation. When executed sloppily it is no more than a magician’s costume. When carried out skillfully, its adroit balance of militaristic authority and refined elegance elevates the most ordinary of men to Royals and Rockefellers.


I'm sorry, but this is the only way you can dress if the invitation states "White Tie and Tails".

knize_at_tailcoat_Feb_2010_edit.jpg

[Hawk]

Good points, all around.

Just a side note Steve...we had reps from the Tribe attend an invited white-tie event and they all did attend but dressed in beaded jackets over a dress type shirt with elaborately beaded or quilled ties.....they were the hit of the gathering and well received by the President, along with his normally white-tie'd attendees.....

But I digress, it appears that in the case of intended Kilted attendees, one should dress accordingly and conform to the accepted dress of the event. Thank you for clarifying as I would not have known in the case of an attempt at being "Kilted".

Hawk

[Steve Ashton]

The wording of invitations is just a rigid as the dress codes they set.
The last lines, at the bottom of these invitations is where the level of dress is usually specified.

Some wording you may see:

White Tie & Tails
White Tie or National Dress.
White Tie, Dress Uniform with Ribbons and Medals, or National Dress

Specifying National Dress is quite different that specifying National Costume or Regional Dress or Folk costume.

To qualify as National Dress a county must actually have an official National Dress specified. For example England has no Official National Dress nor does the US.

It is also assumed that to use National Dress you are attending as an official representative of a Nation. This includes Heads of States and their Ambassadors.

Hawk, A question. What was your event? Was it actually specified White Tie on the invitation?