Brogues, boots, what is casual? What is dressy?

[Wareyin]

There have been several posts about brogues recently that have been confusing me about Highland footwear, so rather than hijack any of those, I'm starting my own thread.

I understand the term brogue means a shoe with the hole pattern, which we in the US would call a wing-tip, or a cap toe.
I've seen claims that these shoes are not formal, yet every picture I've seen of Highland dress seems to show either wing tips, cap toes, or ghillie brogues. If these shoes are not formal in Highland attire, can someone please tell me what is? Further, am I confusing formal with dress? As in formal is solely black or white tie, and a cap toe or wing tip is perfectly fine to attend a day or evening wedding in?

I have seen some attractive brogued boots posted recently, as well, but I have not seen pictures of dress boots with kilts. Is this something that is not done?

[Jock Scot]

There have been several posts about brogues recently that have been confusing me about Highland footwear, so rather than hijack any of those, I'm starting my own thread.

I understand the term brogue means a shoe with the hole pattern, which we in the US would call a wing-tip, or a cap toe.
I've seen claims that these shoes are not formal, yet every picture I've seen of Highland dress seems to show either wing tips, cap toes, or ghillie brogues. If these shoes are not formal in Highland attire, can someone please tell me what is? Further, am I confusing formal with dress? As in formal is solely black or white tie, and a cap toe or wing tip is perfectly fine to attend a day or evening wedding in?

I have seen some attractive brogued boots posted recently, as well, but I have not seen pictures of dress boots with kilts. Is this something that is not done?

Alright let us try to keep this simple! We can talk about splitting hairs later!

Dress and formal mean the same in UK terms, so that does mean black and white tie events PLUS a formal day wedding(morning coats)or in kilt terms a black barathea, silver buttoned, argyll(BBSBA). To be clear here, in the UK wedding SERVICES are held in the daylight hours, before 1700 hrs, however the festivities may well continue well into the night.

So black is the only colour of shoe that fits the bill for formal/dress occasions and NO, boots, not even black ones, will not fit the bill with the kilt in a formal kilted setting.

Where the confusion seems to arise particularly across the Atlantic is that not all black shoes fit the bill. Its a degree of finesse that seems to be missing. Thick rubber soles, 4WD treads, are fine out on the farm or on the hill, but won't do for the more delicate and subtle events like a formal wedding, formal dinner, or formal dance. I have to say that some of the shoes put forward as ideas------they may even be black---- for formal events here by some members leave me absolutely aghast!

Thats it basically. Let the hair splitting begin!

[Father Bill]

Jock, you're right on for Canada too. What seems to me to be happening is what the fashion industry does over and over: "Look at the cool concoction we've made!" People who don't know or care about tradition or established proprieties will fall for those "interesting" styles without realizing that they're offensive to the established norms that are recognized by the experienced cognoscenti.

Now, if you're attending an event where only those with experimental tastes are attending, then fine! Personally, I'd just rather call that style "artsy" or something like that rather than applying the traditional terms of "formal" "business dress" etc. because really, that's not what they are.

The big problem in my mind is the migration of meaning for words that leaves the recipient of an invitation at a loss to know what to do BUT generally, if you stick to the older meanings of the words as my friend has explained them, you'l not be accused of fashion faux pas.

[Wareyin]

Thank you, good sirs!

To make sure I am understanding you, black brogues in the wing tip or cap toe form, with proper sole, are fine for formal wear. Boots are not traditionally worn as formal wear with the kilt.

Personally, I don't like brown shoes at all, so I'm set with a decent pair of black wing tips.

I was confused by how often the statement that 'brogues aren't formal' is made here. As I am still new to Highland wear, I have been looking for pictures of Prince Charles for tasteful ways to wear the kilt. In the very few pictures where he is kilted and I can see his shoes, they appear to be what we call wing tips, in black. I think if this is how royalty dresses, it must be acceptable to do.

[Jock Scot]

You do need to be careful, what I covered in my post above was a basic guide and whilst all that I have said there holds true for any normal formal event, it does start to fall apart at the high end(white tie and uncommon) of the formal scale, where other forms of shoe holds sway. By that I mean where the buckled shoe, or the patent leather "Mary Jane" style comes in.

[Wareyin]

I think that Weddings and Funerals are as formal as I will ever need to dress. But I thank you for the warning, should I somehow ever find myself invited to a white tie event.

[Jock Scot]

I think that Weddings and Funerals are as formal as I will ever need to dress. But I thank you for the warning, should I somehow ever find myself invited to a white tie event.

Most weddings and apart from State funerals, nearly all funerals are not formal, in the context of non formal and formal events.

We in the UK go by the definitions of casual, smart and formal/dress occasions and the baffling definition of "semi formal" does not exist. Casual covers anything from beech wear to going to the pub for a quiet dram. Smart goes from going to the pub with the in laws for the first time, to weddings and funerals where one would wear a lounge/business suit(tweed jacket in kilt terms), then we have formal/dress events.

Each of the first two pretty vague definitions can be dressed up or down depending on how one feels and experience , it is only when we get to formal/dress attire are conventions rather more rigid and expectations of others are to be considered rather more seriosly.

[Wareyin]

Most weddings and apart from State funerals, nearly all funerals are not formal, in the context of non formal and formal events.

We in the UK go by the definitions of casual, smart and formal/dress occasions and the baffling definition of "semi formal" does not exist. Casual covers anything from beech wear to going to the pup for a quiet dram. Smart goes from going to the pub with the in laws for the first time, to weddings and funerals where one would wear a lounge/business suit(tweed jacket in kilt terms), then we have formal/dress events.

Each of the first two pretty vague definitions can be dressed up or down depending on how one feels and experience , it is only when we get to formal/dress attire are conventions rather more rigid and expectations of others are to be considered rather more seriosly.

Two countries, separated by a common language.

In my experience here, formal includes anywhere where people will be expected to wear a suit. Tuxedo is black tie, and I honestly don't know what white tie would be, other than a tuxedo with a white tie. Casual seems the same, and semi-formal seems to equal smart.

[Jock Scot]

AHAAA! It took a while to get there, but I thought that might be the problem. Its not a new one and I can recognise the symptoms pretty well now!

It may help you to understand kilt attire better if you understand two basic things. Firstly you need to divorce American terminology from British and secondly you need to understand that there are no exact comparisons between dress definitions of kilt attire and saxon wear. A tad confusing for a start, but as many here have found out to their benefit, it does help one no end to understand the finer points of kilt attire.

[Father Bill]

... and also to know that Canadian English isn't the same as American.