Etiquette lessons?

[Drac]

Good day all,

I’m not sure where this topic falls so I put it here by default. Mods please move as necessary.

While at the Navy Ball I had a plate setting that through me. The normal rule if you don’t know which fork to use you start on the outside and work in with each course never using the same folk twice. There was a fork on the top of the plate. Wasn’t sure whether this was a salad fork or a dessert fork. If it was a dessert fork which dessert was it for the German chocolate cake that was on the table when we sat down or was it for the lemon “Birthday” cake later that night?

I had ordered a book on gentlemen dressing and a lot of the book was just how to tie a Windsor knot verses a four in hand knot. A lot of it was conduct related to fashion. Between reading it and the puzzle issue of the extra fork I decided to get some others on manners. Since I am also dealing with people who I would never thought I would meet let alone be involved with I am picking up books on things like note writing.

Made me wonder, we seem to go to more formal events than many others, from a Yank’s point of view. A large number of us seem to be ex-military if not current military. There always seems to be one or two weddings in the making and than there are events like Burn’s Dinners. We spend hours, days, even weeks planning, tweaking and polishing our outfit to perfection, starting heated, but always polite, debates on fine to sometimes obscure points. Fly plaids or no fly plaids, medals or no medals, laces or buckles. The list goes on but than I get there and suddenly I’m drawing blanks. I’m not sure of all of you but I never had classes in etiquette and have never been to a finishing school. I mostly rely on my lovely wife to keep me out of trouble, but as I deal with people from very different social structure than I grew up in it gets to be harder and harder on her to keep me out of trouble.

Since I know there are differences in etiquette for a Scottish formal event and a wedding in the States, between a business formal and a military formal, what would you all think about starting a thread on etiquette? From the time I’ve been around here I feel that the discussion could be done politely. It would be benifitial to warn people like me what to expect at things like Burn's Dinners and I can share what you may encounter at say a military ball.

Jim

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

If you don't already have it, A Gentleman at the Table by John Bridges and Bryan Curtis is probably the best modern book on the subject, and covers literally everything you are apt to need (or want) to know to survive any dining experience.

[Drac]

His book on dressing up is the one I have and I the other books I ordered are that one and others by them.

Jim

[macwilkin]

Good day all,

I’m not sure where this topic falls so I put it here by default. Mods please move as necessary.

While at the Navy Ball I had a plate setting that through me. The normal rule if you don’t know which fork to use you start on the outside and work in with each course never using the same folk twice. There was a fork on the top of the plate. Wasn’t sure whether this was a salad fork or a dessert fork. If it was a dessert fork which dessert was it for the German chocolate cake that was on the table when we sat down or was it for the lemon “Birthday” cake later that night?

I had ordered a book on gentlemen dressing and a lot of the book was just how to tie a Windsor knot verses a four in hand knot. A lot of it was conduct related to fashion. Between reading it and the puzzle issue of the extra fork I decided to get some others on manners. Since I am also dealing with people who I would never thought I would meet let alone be involved with I am picking up books on things like note writing.

Made me wonder, we seem to go to more formal events than many others, from a Yank’s point of view. A large number of us seem to be ex-military if not current military. There always seems to be one or two weddings in the making and than there are events like Burn’s Dinners. We spend hours, days, even weeks planning, tweaking and polishing our outfit to perfection, starting heated, but always polite, debates on fine to sometimes obscure points. Fly plaids or no fly plaids, medals or no medals, laces or buckles. The list goes on but than I get there and suddenly I’m drawing blanks. I’m not sure of all of you but I never had classes in etiquette and have never been to a finishing school. I mostly rely on my lovely wife to keep me out of trouble, but as I deal with people from very different social structure than I grew up in it gets to be harder and harder on her to keep me out of trouble.

Since I know there are differences in etiquette for a Scottish formal event and a wedding in the States, between a business formal and a military formal, what would you all think about starting a thread on etiquette? From the time I’ve been around here I feel that the discussion could be done politely. It would be benifitial to warn people like me what to expect at things like Burn's Dinners and I can share what you may encounter at say a military ball.

Jim

Jim,

Firstly, to learn more about the traditions and customs of Burns Night, I would recommend Hugh Douglas's Burns Supper Companion -- it's really designed for organizers of said events, but there is a lot of good information about the life and works of Burns, as well as the Supper itself -- although keep in mind, while all Burns Suppers generally have certain elements -- the Address to the Haggis, the Immortal Memory, etc., no two Burns Suppers are identical.

This web site also gives you a very basic run-down of the "Bill o' Fare":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/robertburns/bur...ng_order.shtml

Another good source of information is Mess Night Traditions by Charles Charles Gibowicz:

http://books.google.com/books?id=0Vo...page&q&f=false

I wish he did a better job at citing his sources.

The Naval Historical Center also has a Mess Night Manual online:

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/...mess_night.htm

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Todd

[Whidbey78]

The spoon and fork above your plate are for dessert. Use the fork to eat your cake, and the spoon for ice cream or custard. It's also acceptable in some cases to use the spoon for anything served between courses to cleanse the pallet, but not always.

I had the same thing at a Navy Ball years ago. Everyone at the table came from "spork society" so I had to research it.

[Drac]

Another good source of information is Mess Night Traditions by Charles Charles Gibowicz:

http://books.google.com/books?id=0Vo...page&q&f=false

Nice book. I use Service Etiquette by Oretha D. Swartz for a lot of my military stuff. Never had to plan dinners though but doing Color and Honor Guard for the last ten years have given me a lot of useless info on pretty much any other Navy ceremonies from Retirements and Change of Command to Plank Owners.

I will warn people off of Naval Ceremonies, Customs, and Traditions, Sixth Edition. Good book for history bad for planning.

Jim

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The spoon and fork above your plate are for dessert. Use the fork to eat your cake, and the spoon for ice cream or custard. It's also acceptable in some cases to use the spoon for anything served between courses to cleanse the pallet, but not always.

Unfortunately the placing of a spoon and fork above the dinner plate is far from universal as the dessert flatware is often set after the other detritus of the meal has been cleared.

Generally speaking, a savory or a sorbet will be served with it's own fork or spoon, as will coffee, if served at the table.

I have found that, aside from the issue concerning which hand wields the fork, there is very little actual difference between table manners in the UK or North America. That said, the interpretation of manners varies considerably based on one's experience. For that reason, if no other, I think it is most helpful in the long run to bone up by reading John Bridges' excellent book, A Gentleman at the Table.

[Jock Scot]

If you want a British slant on all this try;

Debrett's "Correct Form".
Debrett's "Etiquette and Modern Manners".

Or if you can find it, an outdated tome, but nevertheless it contains some fine advice even for modern times. If nothing else it gives a glimpse of the expected social behaviour of the 1920's,30's, 40's and particularly a helpful bit at the rear of the book on how to pronounce some of the rather trickily spelt surnames that seem to abound in this country.Anyway Amazon may be able to help.TRY

"the Book of Etiquette" by Lady Troubridge(an interesting lady to say the least!)

As MoR rightly points out there really appears to be little difference between American and British etiquette and as been said many times before "if you are going to break with convention then it is best to know the rules first". The problem is there are a whole minefield of unwritten conventions that are covered by "its just not done old boy" and it is more than a lifetimes work to know it all!

[Tobus]

I have found that, aside from the issue concerning which hand wields the fork, there is very little actual difference between table manners in the UK or North America.

Lemme guess... in the UK, they hold it with their left hands just like they drive on the left side of the road?

[davedove]

Lemme guess... in the UK, they hold it with their left hands just like they drive on the left side of the road?

The biggest difference is in how you cut and then eat your food.

In the American side of the pond, while cutting the fork is held in the left hand and the knife in the right. Once the bite is cut off, you set the knife down, transfer the fork to the right hand, and then spear and pass the food with your fork to your mouth.

On the European side, once the food is cut, you retain hold of both utensils and transfer the food to your mouth with the fork in the left hand.

This is, of course, a generalization, but fairly accurate. I have heard of tales where undercover American spies were suspected because they ate holding the fork wrong (no idea of the validity of this).


As far as the utensils set above the plate, I have always read that those are for dessert. But, again, that practice is far from universal.