how threads go bad

[OC Richard]

I've noticed something that happens from time to time with threads or posts of mine: somebody will accuse me of telling people what they should or shouldn't wear, or should or shouldn't do, or what have you.

I look back over my own posts and don't see any such thing. It's dismaying because it goes completely against my training and experiences and basic mind-set.

I'm not a linguist by profession but I've taken linguistics courses and it's something of a hobby of mine, and I'm fairly well-read on the subject, for a layman.

There's an approach called the "prescriptive" approach which was in vogue a couple hundred years ago but has been universally discredited in modern times, the "descriptive" approach being in vogue for quite some time now. This is drilled into us, the mind-set of observing and recording what is, rather than telling others what we think it should be.

As Wiki says

Linguistic prescription is the practice of elevating one variety or manner of language use over another. It may imply some forms are incorrect, improper, illogical, or are of low aesthetic value.

Prescriptive approaches to language are often contrasted with descriptive linguistics, which observes and records how language actually is used. The basis of linguistic research is text (corpus) analysis and field study, both of which are descriptive activities.

Another article words it this way

Linguists create descriptive grammars in order to understand language more deeply. They understand that a single language can have multiple dialects, and that each dialect will have its own grammatical rules--internally consistent, but perhaps different from other dialects of the same language. The rules they deduce are sometimes more nuanced than the ones taught by prescriptivists.

Prescriptivists include schoolteachers, copyeditors, and others charged with correcting people's use of the language. Prescriptivists start with the assumption that there is one "correct" way to use the language, and many incorrect ways.

I cannot help but bring the descriptive mindset with me in my interactions with Highland Dress. I spend much time examining what is, and what was. The fact that something is, or was, doesn't elevate it to a status such as "correct".

But others oftentimes misinterpret this, and put words in my mouth. A simple absurd example might be

Me: "I didn't see any red pickup trucks on my way into work this morning."

X: "Why are you against red pickup trucks? My grandpappy always drove one, he loved it! Stop telling people not to drive them! People are free to drive whatever colour pickup truck they want!"

etc...

Even if I don't say anything, but just post a photo of a red pickup truck, I might get

"Why are you insisting that everybody drive red pickup trucks? It's a free country! Everyone knows that the true pickup truck is blue!"

etc...

My trouble is that I can't put myself in that type of mindset, to predict what might set it off.

[Tarheel]

I find myself in your words. A fellow member "jested" at one of my posts, "... did you fall and hit your head again?" I could not take offense because I made a strange comment and will freely admit that.
Since we have not all met in person (and are not likely to) we do our best with each other given the limited information of extended backgrounds. This is the best way for me to get know all of you and open myself to further odd comments I may make in the future that are worthy of repartee or sharp criticism.

[Liam]

OCR...I don't think this is unique to your posts. There is the old piece of wisdom, that man was given 2 ears but only one mouth for a reason. Unfortunately in our electronic world, one find oneself with 10 fingers but only 2 eyes. If we wish to understand another's position we need to spend more time reading and less time firing off "post quick replies".
I also think from time to time there are responses to posts that are deliberately written to provoke, or pick a fight. It doesn't make it right, but some people are just like that. The other issue is that there are some forum topics that are specifically for those asking for comments or advice and it is appropriate to give it. Others are there just to share information, and I consider it rude when comments, however deemed appropriate are made.
Just my recent thoughts....

Further to my post, our Moderators in my experience, do a exemplary job in ensuring things do not get out of hand. My continued thanks to them...

[neloon]

So, Richard, was your disagreement with my pronunciation of feileadh on another thread "descriptive" or "prescriptive" All this goes to show (tongue still in cheek) how cantankerous Americans are!
Actually some of the kilt discussions remind me of how religious converts are fanatical about sticking to rules whereas those who grew up in the faith are much more relaxed and go with the spirit of the business. Indeed, beginners at anything want to find some so-called "correct" way of doing things to gain confidence and a feeling of achievement. This may sometimes make them appear to be a bit arrogant.
Alan

[OC Richard]

Note that I didn't disagree with your pronunciation, rather I inquired about current usage. For clarity, here is what I said

"Alan, the "L" being slender, I would expect a "Y" offglide. No?"

"What confuses me is that the "L" in eile and feileadh are slender, yes? The spelling suggests it, anyhow. Perhaps medial "L" is always pronounced broad nowadays?"

Note that everything is couched as questions. That is the difference: descriptivists ask, prescriptivists tell.

I found it interesting to discover this apparent shift in pronunciation, which of course happens in languages all the time.

Another apparent shift or dialect divergence is the devoicing of slender "d" which was brought to my attention recently. My old teacher would pronounce this as "j" and so it appears in my dictionary and various Gaelic pronunciation guides, yet other guides give "ch" and many people seem to pronounce it thus. It's probably the result of the environment, the surrounding sounds.

Believe you me, the more one studies the history of English the less persnickety one gets about grammar and spelling! "Eggs" was "eyren" and "an apron" was originally "a napron" and "island" originally didn't have an "s" in it and so on. Makes the prescriptive approach more and more absurd.

I've always taken the descriptive approach in music as well. When I took up playing Irish Traditional Music in the 1970s I was acutely aware of my position as an outsider, and I have always studied how the "real Irish players" play and make it my model. The crucial point is to accept how they play and not impose my own preconceptions upon it.

The opposite of my "musicological" approach is what I call the "Yankee ingenuity" approach, which I often run into. That's the deeply ingrained Yankee mistrust of Old World Ways and the self-assurance that we Yanks can, on our own, and using our native cleverness and ingenuity and logic, figure out a better way.

So years ago I attended a workshop in Traditional Irish Flute at which the American teacher informed us that he didn't pay much attention to the way the flute is traditionally played in Ireland, but rather used logic to invent a better approach. This was astounding to me.

In my own teaching it's "You'll hear them do this" rather than "I do this". There's no "I" or "me" in it; I merely observe and pass on what I see and hear.

So it is with language and music, so it is with Highland Dress. Back in the 1970s when I got interested in it I got every book I could and I'm still a sponge, soaking up The Highlanders Of Scotland and hundreds of vintage paintings and photographs and modern photos of Prince Charles and Pipe Bands and the Army and everything else I can get an eyeball onto. As with language, the more of the history and variety one is exposed to the less persnickety one gets.

[neloon]

"... the "L" being slender, I would expect a "Y" offglide. No?"
I would call that a polite disagreement, otherwise you would not have commented - maybe a "prescriptive" transmitted from your old teacher. Anyway, I believe it's an illustration of the sort of misinterpretation difficulties that you mention in the first post especially those that occur across the Pond.
Alan

[Father Bill]

*Sigh*

[OC Richard]

In the Gaelic language I'm very aware of my position as a total outsider and my very limited exposure, a single college course.

I would never dream of setting myself up as an expert. I'm always wanting to learn, so when there's somebody who knows more than I do I will ask questions, ask for clarification.

When I cite how our teacher said something, or how my dictionary has something, it's not a claim that these things are right and you are wrong, but an attempt to make the point as clear as possible. It helps not only myself but also other potential readers to find out when the "conventional wisdom" about something is not correct. My old teacher stressed that there was tremendous dialectal variety and whenever anyone corrected anything to accept the correction and make mental note of it.

For sure when there's somebody who obviously knows even less than myself who asks about something I'll share what I know. That comes from merely trying to be helpful, not from imagining that I'm an expert.

[robbiethepiper]

for what my opinion is worth, I pronounce slender d as j An-diugh, an-dè = an jew, an jay ( today, yesterday )

[Taskr]

Text has neither tone, facial expression nor body language. Much gets lost in the transfer of thought to expression in this medium. It is for each of is to acknowledge the reality of it.