Kilt Go Braugh? A cultural/historical question

[wscottmac]

Irish pubs, bagpipes, St. Patty's Day, kilts, Guiness... These things all go extremely well together, and are often presented in concert. Picture a Highland Pipes and Drums band (clearly Scottish, plausibly mostly Presbyterians) marching on St. Patty's Day (an Irish Catholic celebration). In my gut, and the back of my head, I can make sense of this, but I'm wondering about the cultural/historical background of Scots and Irish culture becoming sorta -- comfortably overlapped? And, how does the culture of Mother England factor into the equation?

I have my own theories/historical interpretation for this phenomenon, but I'd love to hear other's thoughts -- especially our brothers over in Ireland/Scotland/England. Ham? Pour1Malt?

[Jock Scot]

I am not at all sure that there is enough time left in the world to explain!What I will say is, congratulations to all the people of Ireland and in particular those of Northern Ireland who have embraced peace.Long may it last.

[McFarkus]

I'm wondering about the cultural/historical background of Scots and Irish culture becoming sorta -- comfortably overlapped? And, how does the culture of Mother England factor into the equation?

Well laddie, it's a long story. What is now Scotland was inhabited by the Picts when the Romans invaded England. Hadrian's Wall was built to keep the Picts out (it didn't work too well).

The Scots or Scotii were Irish (go figure). They began to move (or maybe were pushed) from the northeast coast of Ireland to the west coast of what is now Scotland in about the 5th Century CE (that's the PC term for AD - CE=Christian Era AD=Anno Domini -in the year of our Lord). One of the 'kingdoms' was that of Dal Riata which had territory in both Ireland and Scotland. And there was also a King of the Scots (Beginning I think with Fergus Mor) - they were always Kings of the Scots, not of Scotland (think Mary, Queen of Scots) - kings of the people not the land, probably because they moved from Ireland to Scotland.

So there we were with the Scots moving into western Scotland and Picts and Gaels and Brythons throughout the rest. Then Angles, Saxons & Jutes invaded and later Norse (think Vikings) invaded both Scotland and Ireland (did you know that Dublin was originally a Viking settlement?). It is thought that the red hair in Scotland and Ireland comes from the Vikings. Some time during this, the Celts who had inhabited much of Britain were forced into the hinterland (vis. Cornwall, Wales, Ireland and Scotland).

Apparently the word Scotland was first used in the 10th century in the Anglo-Saxon chronicle.

After the Normans invaded in 1066, some of them ended up in Scotland (Adam de Gordon, the Sinclairs (St. Clair) and others. So, in fact, all of us are mutts, even those of 'pure Scottish blood'.

THEN the Normans (English and maybe some Scots) invaded Ireland in 1169 at the behest of Henry II of England and have been occupying it ever since (today only Northern Ireland is part of Britain) - at least the Irish thought they were being occupied; the English thought it was now their country. Many of the Irish nobility from that time on were really Anglo-Irish.

Now you throw the Reformation into that mix about 350-400 years later and a king (Henry VIII) who wanted the Pope to grant him a divorce so he could have a son and heir to keep from going through the War of Roses all over again (I don't even want to touch that). But Henry's wife was Catherine of Aragon and her nephew, the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V, had an army surrounding Rome - so a divorce didn't seem likely. Soooo - Henry turned Protestant (in name only) so he could get a divorce.

So now we have Protestant (Anglican) England and Catholic Scotland and Ireland. Then the Scots quickly turned Protestant (Presbyterian) - or most of them did - while Mary Queen of Scots was growing up in France where she was betrothed to the Dauphin.

Then Mary's son, James VI, King of Scots, becomes James I of England and the Stuart dynasty takes over. Eventually James II (grandson of James I) marries a Catholic princess as his second wife and parliament (having already chopped off the head of James II's father, Charles I) throws James out with his wife and baby son (James Stuart, the Old Pretender father of Bonnie Prince Charlie) and puts James II's Protestant daughter Mary followed by her sister Anne on the throne.

Meanwhile, Parliament made a law that only a Protestant could rule England, and since Mary and Anne had no surviving children they had to reach back to the descendants of Elizabeth, Electress Palatine and her heirs (she was born Elizabeth Stuart, Princess of Scotland and daughter of James I) in order to find a Protestant line. So beginning in August 1714 her grandson, George the Elector of Hanover became King of Britain (Scotland and England had been joined in the Act of Union) and Ireland (he never did learn to speak English).

That precipitated the Jacobite rebellion of 1715 with the attempt to put the the Stuarts back on the throne. When the rebellion failed many of the Scots rebels fled across to Ireland, and many eventually came to the American colonies. But they lived in Ireland for quite a while (probably mainly in Northern Ireland).

So the upshot is that the Scots and Irish are cousins both through the movement of the Scots from Ireland, the Celts fleeing to both Scotland and Ireland, and through the Viking invasions. Much of the friction between the two comes from the fact that the Scots are, for the most part, Protestants, and the Irish are for the most part, Catholic.

But they feel united by the oppression they share - Scotland officially disappeared with the Act of Union of 1707, but the process began with the Union of the Crowns of Scotland and England in 1603 to form Great Britain. As stated above, from the Irish point of view, they have been occupied in whole or part for almost 850 year by the English.

This is a little confusing, if not convoluted, and painted in very broad strokes, and I've probably left out a lot. But I hope this helps. :beer:

[Mike1]

This thread was moved off the open forum for some review and discussion by the forum staff.

The thread has a lot of possibilities. For informative discussion, as well as for destructive argument.

We're going to restore it and see what direction it might take. If it veers off into political/religious debate, it will be removed. So please give your responses to this thread some extra consideration before submitting them.

[Galician]

A very fine and useful thumbnail sketch of the history of that region. I would only correct your definition of CE, it actually stands for "Common Era." That drops the religious reference completely, which is what makes it PC.

[pipesndrumsnun]

Thanks mkfarkus...very informative!

[slohairt]

Irish pubs, bagpipes, St. Patty's Day, kilts, Guiness... These things all go extremely well together, and are often presented in concert. Picture a Highland Pipes and Drums band (clearly Scottish, plausibly mostly Presbyterians) marching on St. Patty's Day (an Irish Catholic celebration). In my gut, and the back of my head, I can make sense of this, but I'm wondering about the cultural/historical background of Scots and Irish culture becoming sorta -- comfortably overlapped? And, how does the culture of Mother England factor into the equation?

I have my own theories/historical interpretation for this phenomenon, but I'd love to hear other's thoughts -- especially our brothers over in Ireland/Scotland/England. Ham? Pour1Malt?

Since you put it as a cultural/historical question (without being political!) I'll answer as best as I can (without being political).

Overlapping of Irish and Highland Scottish culture is perfectly understandable; they are both Gaelic cultures. For much of their history, their respective cultures differed little, whether it be language, dress, etc. Things changed through outside influences (Lowlanders, the English, etc.), as is often the case. In fact, throughout history the Scottish Highlander identified himself more closely with his Irish brethren, than with Lowlanders. Take these Irish language terms as an example: Gael Éireannach (Irish), Gael Mheiriceánach (Irish American), Gael Albanach (Scottish Highlander), Gael Ceanadach (Irish Canadian). You'll note the frequency of the term "Gael." This meant, traditionally, that no matter where you came from you were still a Gael.

You're right, many Scots are Presbyterian, however many Highlanders are Catholic. St. Patrick's Day today is not really considered a Catholic holiday in Ireland, nor is it anywhere else. You'll find the Northern Irish Unionist/Protestant people honour St. Patrick just as much!

I wouldn't say England is the "mother" of these nations by any means, so I don't really see how English culture factors in at all. They are/were of a foreign culture with different customs and traditions than the Gaels.

[wscottmac]

First -- to the Mods: thanks so much for reinstating this thread. I had absolutely no intention of starting a political or religious debate. I was just curious what folks (esp. over in Ireland/England/Scotland) see as the UNIFYING bonds between the Irish and Scottish, how that fits in with the English, and the historical reasons for Scottish cultural participation in St. Patty's Day. It's a very interesting subject to me (coming from Ulster Scot ancestors), and I'd imagine, to others on this board. Like you said, this does steer close to some dangerous waters, but it isn't my intention to bring any of that into this discussion.

Here's my thought process: I know I like wearing the kilt on St. Patty's Day. Love hearing the 'pipes and drinking Guiness. In my gut I kinda feel like St. Patty's (here in the US) has maybe become (like so many other things) a watered down, Marketing driven production. Like - some Marketing exec. back in the 1950's said, "Hey, ya know, we could throw some kilted pipers in that parade, huh? It's all kinda Celtic-like, right" --- and, that it just stuck.

I'm really looking for other folk's thoughts/history on good LEGITIMATE (and positive) historical reasons for Scottish cultural participation in St. Patty's Day, and other unifying bonds b/t the Scots, Irish, and English.

Another way to state this may be, "What thoughts do you personally have when you don your kilt on March 17th?"


MKFarkus - thanks for taking the time to summarize that history. It was a good refresher, and a good jumping off point for this discussion. I appreciate it.

[Ozman1944]

Mkfarkus, that was great! concise and a good job of tippy toe through the hazards of religion & politics. Very difficult as both played an integral part in Gaelic/Celt cultural history - and still does for that matter. Thanks to the 'thread gods' who have allowed this to remain on the Forum. We are not worthy!!!.

[Macman]

Another way to state this may be, "What thoughts do you personally have when you don your kilt on March 17th?"

I guess I would never think of wearing a kilt on March 17. Here, I'd get looked at more oddly than usual if I did, because here there's a distinction between Irish and Scottish. If I wore a kilt on St. Patrick's Day, most people would think I was really mixed up. I'm not saying anyone shouldn't, but just that's what it's like where I am.