More about traditional jackets

[Farmer Jones]

I have in the past had questions about kilt jackets. Please refer to the photographs of John Brown (Queen Victoria's groom) in these links:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...d-America.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...x-scandal.html

Please see the original black and whites, not the modern re-enactment. In these photo's John Brown appears to be wearing a conventional tweed jacket, except possibly in the photo with his dogs.

Would it be proper for me to conjecture that what we accept as the modern style of civilian jackets are actually an innovation from the post 1890 period?

[Tobus]

Would it be proper for me to conjecture that what we accept as the modern style of civilian jackets are actually an innovation from the post 1890 period?

Absolutely. That's pretty much general knowledge. Today's traditional kilt jackets, like the Argyle jacket, is a direct descendant of the jackets worn as far back as the mid-19th century. There are, of course, many different variations both then and now.

But sheesh, you could have picked a less controversial web source for example photos!

[Farmer Jones]

Absolutely. That's pretty much general knowledge. Today's traditional kilt jackets, like the Argyle jacket, is a direct descendant of the jackets worn as far back as the mid-19th century. There are, of course, many different variations both then and now.

But sheesh, you could have picked a less controversial web source for example photos!

It is just a comic, I know, but it was an easy source of some of the pics.

[The Wizard of BC]

I think most people realize how much influence the British Military has had in what, we today, call Highland Wear. If it were not for the kilted military units the kilt may have become just another quaint National costume similar to lederhosen or fustinela.

Most of our accessories have a military pedigree. Our Jackets have much the same pedigree. What we call the Argyle today takes it inspiration from the military tunic. The Prince Charlie takes its inspiration from Mess Dress.

What most people today do not know is that it was modern manufacturing that gave us these two styles and allowed, and in a way directed, these two styles to become the norm.

Prior to WWI most clothing was made by hand, one garment at a time. Every town and village had its tailor shops. Thousands of people made their living providing clothing. From cutters, to tailors, to seamstresses, to retail salespeople. If you wanted a suit, a dress, a kilt, you went to your local tailor shop and told them what you wanted and they made it for you.

Every tailor shop had their own special details. Those things which they hoped would set them apart from everyone else and draw customers to their door.

Today we view a tailor shop as an alteration service, and not much more. Gone are the days when you could speak to the person who would actually cut out and sew up your clothing. Gone are the days when we expect, when it is normal, to have every garment we own to be a distinctive, one-of-a-kind garment.

Today there are very few actual manufacturing sites. Most garments today are made on an assembly line just as cars are. I don't want to get into the reasons for this just to remind you that that is a fact of today's world.

If you want a Kilt Jacket today it will be made in one of three or four places. Perhaps the largest kilt jacket manufacturing place is actually not in Scotland but in Leeds, England. I would be able to say with some certainty that 75% or 80% of all the jackets you see in shops come out of this one small establishment.

This centralization of manufacturing had given us standardization. Standard quality and standard designs. Again, I would rather not get into if this is a good or bad thing. It is just a fact.

The OP asked if his perception of today's jackets being a post 1890's development was correct. It is absolutly correct. In fact the date is more around 1910-20. The Prince Charlie Coatee we know as standard today, became a standard in the 1920's and 30's. About the same time as the development of the Tuxedo. The standard Argyle we expect today developed over a longer period that started earlier but did not become "the standard" until a little later, just after WWII.

There are still places where you can meet your tailor. Where you can still get a one-of-a-kind garment. But they are few and far between and you will pay a premium price for that service.

For the rest of us there are fewer options. But those options do still exist. Myself at Freedom Kilts, Rocky at USA Kilts, and Matt Newsome at New House Highland try our best to offer our customers a distinctive and unique or signature garment along with the standards.

[Farmer Jones]

Thanks Steve. In addition to your reply I have been given a link to a conversation in here about jackets, which was asked from a different perspective, but covered what I needed to know about period authenticity. I suspect that many modern day film makers do not realize how recent a development the standard Argyle (and its variants) are. I do not recall any depictions of kilted civilians in movies from before WWII, but if we could find some, they would likely be more accurate than what is seen in modern movies.

[OC Richard]

We have to keep in mind that what we think of as a Scottish military doublet (with the gauntlet cuffs and flaps or skirts around the bottom) went FROM civilian Highland dress TO the military and not the other way round.

Doublets (and Glengarries) first came into the Army as the dress of pipers, who were more or less dressed in livery rather than the uniform that the rest of the regiment wore. They for whatever reason spread from the dress of the pipers alone to the rest of the regiment.

The Army didn't adopt doublets for the entire Scottish infantry until 1855 but they had been worn by some of the pipers for decades before and were originally a civilian style. (Ditto Glengarries.)

If one looks through hundreds of 19th century photographs of kilted men in civilian Highland Dress, and looks through The Highlanders of Scotland (1860s, showing precisely the same dress as photographs of the same period) one is struck by a number of things:

1) there was a greater variety of jacket styles at that time than today
2) jackets were often more plain than "kilt jackets" are now, often with utterly plain cuffs, lacking epaulettes, etc.
3) our modern suite of Evening jackets (Prince Charlie, Montrose, Sherriffmuir, Kenmore) did not exist.

The equivalent to our "Day Dress" tweed kilt jackets were nearly always light to mid grey, less often brown, and were usually utterly plain. They were, in fact, often exactly the same jacket as one would wear with trousers at that time. Sometimes they were cut shorter to suit the kilt, sometimes not. The tweed almost never has any pattern to it.

For Evening Dress, the most common style was a style very similar to the military doublet of the same period, with flaps and cuffs, made of black fabric and silver buttons. What distinguished it from the military jacket was its open collar with lapels. Also fairly common was utterly plain black jackets, jackets which we today would hardly consider suitable for Evening Dress. One is struck by all the finery often worn with Evening Dress at that time (waistbelt, crossbelt, plaid, weaponry) which makes one tend to not notice the plainness of the jacket itself.

[OC Richard]

So here you can see a piper of the 93rd Highlanders wearing a doublet before doublets were introduced into the army. Pipers in the early 19th century can be seen wearing all sorts of non-military garb such as tartan jackets, different bonnets, etc



see this recent thread to see many photos I posted showing 19th century kilt jackets

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...-jacket-81767/

Here's a jacket exactly as would be worn with trousers

[OC Richard]

Here are flaps appearing on a Highland doublet 150 years before the Army adopted them




and the Glengarry worn in civilian attire a quarter-century before being adopted by the Army


On the topic of plainness, note the piper in the centre. A casual glance would make one think that he's in military dress like the soldier to the left, but look at his jacket: utterly plain.



Doublets with trim all over, like the one on the right, aren't common at that time but become very popular around 1900 (though usually not tan!)

[Farmer Jones]

dukeofargyll.jpg

This image shows the 11th Duke of Argyll. I think it was taken sometime in the 1950s. The military origins of the jacket style are obvious. What is of note to me is that he is wearing his dirk belt over his jacket and that he has a dirk with knife and fork hanging on the right side. So he has both his sgian dubh and dirk on the same side. The other thing is that instead of silver buttons he has what appear to be fish. I am pretty sure that this is "formal" attire. What has changed since then is that the formal jacket is now a PC, and the dirk belt is not used with that. That would mean that the dirk also is no longer carried formally.

[McMurdo]

The dirk can still be carried formally, though I suspect it is not carried as often as it once was. Here is a photo of me from a few years back giving the Address to the Haggis on Burns night. As I was about to dispatch the wee beasty I was wearing my dirk.