Confused....

[Sean Wilson]

I bought Barbara's book the art of kilt making. It's a fantastic read. So I tried out chapter 4 understanding the structure on my own 16oz wool kilt. Now I'm totally puzzled. If my maths is right and I understood the chapter about the no of pleats then my kilt should comply with the book. It doesn't. I worked out 13 pleats. My kilt has 27. Here is my maths

34" waist, 38" hips. Tartan is ancient Wilson 16oz, set appears 15 1/2".

Calculated on the hip - pleats should be compressed into half of hip measurement making it 19" with 19" for the under apron and another 19" for the apron with a total wrap around of 38 ".

If I'm using 8 yards of cloth. That makes 8 yards (288") minus 38" (for both aprons) minus a further yard (36" for facings on apron) or 74". That leaves 288" minus 74"= 214" (5 yards & 34") to pleat across 19".

So to pleats. 214" ÷ 15.5"(sett size)= 13.8 pleats.

As I said earlier my kilt has 27 pleats.

Either my math is off... I have not understood Barbara's Instructions... I have measured the sett wrong... or Wilson Ancient is not a symetrical tartan?

Can anyone help?

I can't seem to attach a pic of the tartan. But I will later

[Mike in Dayton]

One problem is the size of the sett. At 15" that is LARGE sett. If you pleat to that you will have very wide pleats and only 13 trying to use just the available material. You don't have enough material to make 20+ pleats with, lets say, 3/4" pleats. With my limited experience pleating a kilt that is my take on it.

[Mike in Dayton]

Adding to my post above look at the sett and see if there are any stripes that repeat within the sett. One trick is to pleat to a shorter "sett". You could also alternate stripes within the sett so the end result is your down to an effective sett of 5 to 7 inches. I am not familiar with that tartan so just thinking off the top of my head.

Mike

[Pleater]

With such a large sett it would be a kilt makers first impulse to find some way to create two pleats from each sett by placing the pleats so as to give the illusion of either the sett or the selected stripe being as seen in the full set.

Where this is impossible but desirable then you can end up with compromises such as alternating red and yellow stripes or a stripe on alternate pleats only, but the background matching.

With the full sett of Black watch pleats can have alternating single and double fine black lines.

The aim is to make a good number of pleats which will be fairly narrow but still deep enough to give a good swish to the finished product

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

[The Wizard of BC]

OK, did you measure how much fabric there is in your existing kilt?
Simply measure the total length of fabric along the hem. Include the fabric used in the facings.

Then, is your existing kilt pleated to the Sett or to a stripe? If by some chance your existing kilt is pleated to the four narrow red stripes - Those appear twice in each Sett effectively halving the Sett size.

[Sean Wilson]

Thank you Mike, Anne and Steve for your replies

I think what Ann said about picking a repeating line within the sett is what the kilt maker has done. Steve the approx. yardage of the kilt when measured across the hem is 7 yards & 2 inch. I'm not totally sure what you (or Barbara in her book) means by "facings". The kilt is pleated to the sett. I've attached a picture showing the front apron and the sett and pleats so you can see what the maker did.

Sorry but for some reason I can not seem to attach photos - although I've managed before... I'll keep trying.

[Sean Wilson]

Hope I'm not being a pest but the next problem I found when trying to understand my kilt construction was to do with the width of the apron, under apron and the area to fit the pleats into. According to Barbara's book, in Chapter 4, I worked out the following:

With a waist of 34" the two aprons should be 17" each leaving 17" to fit the pleats into.

However, when I measured my kilt the apron was 19.5 inch (excluding the fringe), the under apron 19 inch and the pleated area at the waistline below the rise was 16.5 inch at the waist and 20 inch at the bottom of the fell. Nothing like the measurements I expected.

I do have to say the kilt feels like a good fit despite the measurements. I'm just trying to understand the construction. I have taken photos of all parts along with a tape measure laid over the kilt so you can see what I am explaining. I really hope I can attach the photos but my uploads keep failing.

[argyle24]

Sean,

When you take a kiltwearer's measurements and then sort out how they translate into the measures at the apron and the pleats, it will be unusual for you to find that they'll be an equal split front to back.

Most humans are not equally proportional from front to back. The small of the back curves inwards and our posteriors stick out further than the same area in front. In figuring splits, you would initially make an even figure (e.g. - 34" would be divided out to 17" and 17") and then make adjustments from there. Rule of thumb is to put more of the measure in the apron than the pleats at the waist and then conversely, flip that for the measure of the apron at the fell (fullest part of the buttocks) as you would need more material in the pleats around your butt than in the front.

This shaping is what causes a properly made kilt to 'fit like a glove', snug into the small of the back and then allowing the pleats to follow the shape of the wearer to the fell and then hang straight.

So your finding that the apron at the waist measured 19.5" and 16.5" at the pleats gives you a figure of 36" at the waist. That is bigger than your given measurement of 34" at the waist, so you may have the kilt buckled a hole or two tighter to ensure it feels appropriately tight when wearing (that's completely fine - kilts are flexible garments and often designed to fit the wearer's initially submitted measurements with the kilt buckled on the 3rd hole of the strap) The finding that the back measure across the fell is 20" is also appropriate - if it had the same measure as the pleats across the waist, the kilt wouldn't shape to you and wouldn't fit right! Does that help?

[Sean Wilson]

Sean,

When you take a kiltwearer's measurements and then sort out how they translate into the measures at the apron and the pleats, it will be unusual for you to find that they'll be an equal split front to back.

Most humans are not equally proportional from front to back. The small of the back curves inwards and our posteriors stick out further than the same area in front. In figuring splits, you would initially make an even figure (e.g. - 34" would be divided out to 17" and 17") and then make adjustments from there. Rule of thumb is to put more of the measure in the apron than the pleats at the waist and then conversely, flip that for the measure of the apron at the fell (fullest part of the buttocks) as you would need more material in the pleats around your butt than in the front.

This shaping is what causes a properly made kilt to 'fit like a glove', snug into the small of the back and then allowing the pleats to follow the shape of the wearer to the fell and then hang straight.

So your finding that the apron at the waist measured 19.5" and 16.5" at the pleats gives you a figure of 36" at the waist. That is bigger than your given measurement of 34" at the waist, so you may have the kilt buckled a hole or two tighter to ensure it feels appropriately tight when wearing (that's completely fine - kilts are flexible garments and often designed to fit the wearer's initially submitted measurements with the kilt buckled on the 3rd hole of the strap) The finding that the back measure across the fell is 20" is also appropriate - if it had the same measure as the pleats across the waist, the kilt wouldn't shape to you and wouldn't fit right! Does that help?

Thank you. I think that makes perfect sense.

[The Wizard of BC]

Sean,

It's all about taking a two dimensional piece of fabric and making it fit a three dimensional human form.

Add to that some tricks that are learned with experience built on a base of other peoples experiences.

How Barb explains to make a kilt in TAoK, is how Barb learned from Elsie who apprenticed at Gordon's. That is not the only way to make a kilt or the only school of thought about how a kilt should be made. It is one way.

For example in TAoK you will see that the outer apron is not symmetrical. There is an extra inch added to the right side. If you were to use a tape measure to reverse engineer a kilt made IAW TAoK and did not know that it would be confusing.

Another example is that no two guys are alike. A guy with a large belly may have a different apron/pleat proportion than a skinny kid. In the end the edges of an apron look best when they form vertical lines down the side of the wearer.

And finally if your existing kilt was not made by someone using the Gordon's/Elsie's/Barb's method you can't really use the instructions to understand all the details. Does your kilt have reverse flare above the top straps? Does your existing kilt have a full stabilizer, a half stabilizer or no stabilizer at all? Is your current kilt totally hand stitched, partially machine sewn and hand finished or something else?

Yes, if you make kilts in accordance with TAoK you essentially make the same kilt over and over again. The process and the procedures are exactly the same. But no two kilts you will ever make will be exactly the same. A small tweek to accommodate a belly or a small adjustment for something else.

This is why the title of the book is "The Art of Kiltmaking" and not the science or engineering of kiltmaking.