Ancient tartan patern

[Slowburn]

Do so called ancient tartans use modern dyes to achieve thier color?

[figheadair]

Do so called ancient tartans use modern dyes to achieve thier color?

Simple answer - yes. What else would they use. Further information on colourways is available on the Research page of my site www.scottishtartans.co.uk

This term causes no end of confusion because it is used to apply both the the age of a tartan, generally in relation to another for the same clan, and also the lighter/brighter colour shades. In both senarios the term is also used interchangably with old.

Years ago there was a move amongst the academics to try and regularise the problem by recommending that if used before the tartan name it referred to the age of the design, used after the name and it referred to the dye shades. This would also have worked for the other colour shades applied to tartans: modern, reproduction, weathered etc. We also recommended a standard term be used for each colourway. Unfortunately we couldn't get the Trade to agree because they all had their own way of doing things and were not prepared to change.

[piperdbh]

Yes, if it's a commercial weaver who is producing several yards/meters of fabric. If it's somebody dyeing yarn/fabric at home just for the fun of it, they might use plant dyes.

[figheadair]

Yes, if it's a commercial weaver who is producing several yards/meters of fabric. If it's somebody dyeing yarn/fabric at home just for the fun of it, they might use plant dyes.

Might just but the use of natural dyes does not necessariy mean that the shades would be pale as in so-called ancient/old colours. Natural dyes can give the whole shade range of a given colour depending on the amount of dyestuff used. The traditionl use of natural dyes employed a variety of shades that balanced out the pattern in a way that the modern commercial ranges just don't.

[piperdbh]

Right. My understanding is that the "ancient" colors are a modern attempt at matching the colors achieved by plant dyes, before the advent of "modern" chemical dyes, but, like you say, all sorts of colors can be achieved with plant dyes. Indigo, for example, gets darker and "bluer" the more it oxidizes. And, indigo was once a cash crop in North Carolina, as well as several other places in the US.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

We have a nice little one-sheet download on tartan color terminology here:
http://www.scottishtartans.org/downl...eet_colors.pdf

Also, I have addressed this on my web site, as well:
In photos:
http://albanach.org/colors.html

And in an article I wrote for the Scottish Banner.
http://albanach.org/anc_colors.htm

[Slowburn]

That is kind of what I was after, whether our not plant dyes were being used to create old tartan colors. All of the painting s of early kilts look rich in color almost palpable. I also was wondering if I should expect any natural fading with a newly maid ancient pattern.

[figheadair]

That is kind of what I was after, whether our not plant dyes were being used to create old tartan colors. All of the painting s of early kilts look rich in color almost palpable. I also was wondering if I should expect any natural fading with a newly maid ancient pattern.

No, natural dyes will not be used in any commercial tartan that you buy.

One cannot take the colours in paintings as anything other than a rough guide to the shades of the material that was being depicted.

I have dozens of pictures of tartan specimens that date between c1700-1850 that were naturally dyed. Some of the colours in some of the pieces have faded, other haven't. Modern chemically dyed cloth will fade uniformly across the colour spectrum and given time and exposure will fade to the palest shades. Natural dyes don't fade that way. Some colours will change, some fade and others hardly alter.

Here's and example just to prove that the concept of ancient colours is flawed.



A piece of Wilsons' of Bannockburn 'Lochaber' - c1820-30 in natural dyes.

[Tobus]

That is kind of what I was after, whether our not plant dyes were being used to create old tartan colors. All of the painting s of early kilts look rich in color almost palpable. I also was wondering if I should expect any natural fading with a newly maid ancient pattern.

As others have said, modern tartan cloth (even in "ancient" color schemes) will be made with modern dyes. However, if you desire the look of a tartan that's been faded with age, you can go with a "weathered" tartan. They are made to look as if they were made from plant-based dyes and then buried in a peat bog for a couple of centuries (that's the description I saw somewhere, but can't remember where).

For example, I notice that your avatar is the Colquhoun tartan, which is also my clan tartan. Borrowing Rocky's images for this example, you can see the modern color scheme, which is very dark and makes no pretense of looking old, looks like this:




The "ancient" colors are lighter, of course, but still have a true color hue (i.e. blue is blue, green is green, etc.):




There is also a "weathered" Colquhoun, which Lochcarron lists but is not a standard in-stock tartan. They won't even do a run of it unless it's a big order. I'm currently having a kilt made in this weathered tartan, as a custom weave by DC Dalgliesh. As you can see, the colors are more faded and earthy, which is intended to re-create a color scheme that's old and faded and, well, weathered.




If you wanted your kilt to look like it was made with plant-based dyes for that rustic faded look, "weathered" is the way to go.

[figheadair]

As others have said, modern tartan cloth (even in "ancient" color schemes) will be made with modern dyes. However, if you desire the look of a tartan that's been faded with age, you can go with a "weathered" tartan. They are made to look as if they were made from plant-based dyes and then buried in a peat bog for a couple of centuries (that's the description I saw somewhere, but can't remember where).

There is also a "weathered" Colquhoun, which Lochcarron lists but is not a standard in-stock tartan. They won't even do a run of it unless it's a big order. I'm currently having a kilt made in this weathered tartan, as a custom weave by DC Dalgliesh. As you can see, the colors are more faded and earthy, which is intended to re-create a color scheme that's old and faded and, well, weathered.

If you wanted your kilt to look like it was made with plant-based dyes for that rustic faded look, "weathered" is the way to go.

I have to disagree. First of all it's more correct to talk of natural dyes rather than plant based dyes. True most were derived from plants but most reds (and all I've seen from c1700 onwards) were insect dyes, principally from cochineal but occasionally from Lac another shield insect.

Neither Reproduction or Weathered colours are paricularly accurate at representing natural dyes, faded or otherwise. The best commercial range are Muted colours such as those by House of Edgar but even these are a but odd and don't really match historial specimens terribly well. Better still are copies of Wilsons of Bannockburn's colours. They were naturally dyed and can be match accurately.