I didn't know that

[JayFilomena]

I want to give a big thank you to Rev Christopher for mentioning the Kirkin o' the tartan. Until this morning, (17Oct) I had no idea such a blessing existed. I was planning on going to the Richmond Highland games on Saturday, because I did not want to miss church on Sunday. But...since there is a Worship service and Kirkin o' the tartan on Sunday at 0930, I can tell you now, I will be there.

Can someone give me an idea of how the Kirkin o' the tartan works? The only cloth of my PSD: Operation Iraqi Freedom, tartan i have is my kilt and my wifes sash. Do I just put my wifes sash on the alter, the priest blesses it, and I get it back? are there going to be 2000 tartans on the alter and getting my wifes sash back going to be a nightmare? Or do we just stand there and the priest wave his hand in our direction?

Jaybird

[macwilkin]

Jay,

It depends on the service; I've been to some where the tartans are brought forward to the chancel/altar, some where they are collected on a silver tray, others where tartan banners are laid accross the altar, and some where everyone stands and the tartans are blessed "en masse" -- it really depends on the layout and size of the church and numbers attending.

One quick historical note (yeah, right!) -- the Kirkin' is not an ancient Scottish tradition, as some in the Scottish American community would believe; some believe the Kirkin service orginated at the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church in DC; the pastor, the Rev. Peter Marshall, was a Scottish immigrant who held services for British war relief in WWII entitled "The Kirkin' of the Tartans". Over time, a legend has grown up concerning the failed '45 rebellion and hiding scraps of cloth to be blessed, but there's little historical evidence for it. My personal opinion is that the Kirkin' draws much more from the outdoor worship services called Conventicles of the Covenanting Presbyterians of Lowland Scotland in the 1600's.

Regards,

Todd

[MacWage]

My personal opinion is that the Kirkin' draws much more from the outdoor worship services called Conventicles of the Covenanting Presbyterians of Lowland Scotland in the 1600's.

Regards,

Todd

:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Odd, the Covenanters were by and large lowlanders (though I've heard some evidence that some were Gaelic highlanders, I am not entirely convinced). Traditionally, lowlanders were not fans of highlanders. YET, a covenanter service is is used to bless the symbol of the highlanders (which is why tartan was outlawed in after the 1745 rebellion, along with instruments of war-> inc. Bagpipes).








Decendant of Covenanters and highlanders both,

[macwilkin]

:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Odd, the Covenanters were by and large lowlanders (though I've heard some evidence that some were Gaelic highlanders, I am not entirely convinced). Traditionally, lowlanders were not fans of highlanders. YET, a covenanter service is is used to bless the symbol of the highlanders (which is why tartan was outlawed in after the 1745 rebellion, along with instruments of war-> inc. Bagpipes).

Decendant of Covenanters and highlanders both,

Evidently I didn't make my last post clear enough -- remember that I said that Presbyertian Minister Peter Marshall was credited with "originating" the service -- Marshall was certainly aware of the Conventicles, since "Covenanter Country" is, in general, SW Scotland. And also, you'll notice that I said that the Kirkin' has not been traced to the days of the proscription, even though "the myth" potrays it that way.

So, my personal opinion, and that's about it, is that Marshall, who was no doubt aware of the Presbyterian faith's history in Scotland, was certainly influenced by the conventicles in his creation of the Kirkin' service, especially since there is really no "Highland equivalent" to the service.

Hopefully that's a bit more clear now.

T.

[HeathBar]

Jay,

Of the kirkin's I've been to, both outdoors, representatives of the clans at the games carry a tartan banner (flag) and are gathered in a certain spot. At Grandfather, I think they were all lined up in front of the clergyman. A blessing of the tartan is read aloud. Sometimes the tartans are declared by name. I don't think someone could just walk up and add their non-clan tartan to the line-up.

I'll be there both days with the Barclay clan. It's be nice to meet you.

[macwilkin]

Jay,

Of the kirkin's I've been to, both outdoors, representatives of the clans at the games carry a tartan banner (flag) and are gathered in a certain spot. At Grandfather, I think they were all lined up in front of the clergyman. A blessing of the tartan is read aloud. Sometimes the tartans are declared by name. I don't think someone could just walk up and add their non-clan tartan to the line-up.

I'll be there both days with the Barclay clan. It's be nice to meet you.

Depends on the Kirkin' organizer. I know I would certainly welcome any "walk-ins" at the Kirkin' I organize!

T.

[MacWage]

It was more MY ambiguity!! I was just struck by the irony of the utilization of practices more associated with a specific group of strong convictions and largly lowlander make-up (especially in light of the highlander/lowlander historic animosity) to honor what was THEN (NOT NOW!!!) seen as a highlander symbol, so much so it was outlawed.

The service, the kirkin', is DEFINATELY American (mostly US) in early practice. My own home church has one and I am thinking/working to have one where I serve now. If anyone wants to participate from the Upstate, SC, PM me and we can discuss it.

The most significant part of the service, from a sociological/historical viewpoint is the fusion of different elements of the diverse Scottish culture into a unified "Scottish Culture," combining lowland, highland, and western isles together, as well as the various religious strands in many cases. :confused:

(Off topic-> the downside of this is the bluring tends to obscure the complex cultural factors at work in the decision making processes around events, so that they become confusing and illogical in the resultant simplified history. A few examples are in the events surrounding the ACTUAL King Macbeth ( and Malcolm and Duncan), the Wars of Liberation around 1300, the reformation and the Wars of the Covenant (late 1500s and 1600s), and the Jacobite Rebellions (1689-1745). In ALL of these, I have read very BAD histories that are rooted more in the modern fusion of the Scots, than in trying to understand them as they actually WERE!!! )

I was more noting where things are NOW, especially interesting in light of where they WERE a couple centuries ago. THANKS, Walter Scott!!!

Evidently I didn't make my last post clear enough -- remember that I said that Presbyertian Minister Peter Marshall was credited with "originating" the service -- Marshall was certainly aware of the Conventicles, since "Covenanter Country" is, in general, SW Scotland. And also, you'll notice that I said that the Kirkin' has not been traced to the days of the proscription, even though "the myth" potrays it that way.

So, my personal opinion, and that's about it, is that Marshall, who was no doubt aware of the Presbyterian faith's history in Scotland, was certainly influenced by the conventicles in his creation of the Kirkin' service, especially since there is really no "Highland equivalent" to the service.

Hopefully that's a bit more clear now.

T.

[macwilkin]

Here's something else I should have mentioned:

Many supporters of Covenanter Richard Cameron joined the Cameronian Regiment, the only regiment of the British Army formed for "religious reasons"; They would go on church parade armed, and post sentries at the four corners of the Kirk, to commemorate the armed guards at the conventicles. And, the padre/minister could not begin the service until an officer shouted "all clear"!

I've been thinking of speaking to the minister of the Presbyterian Church that holds a Kirkin' here about doing it outside one year, with symbolic guards on the four corners...

So, we were on the same wavelength, MacWage!

T.

It was more MY ambiguity!! I was just struck by the irony of the utilization of practices more associated with a specific group of strong convictions and largly lowlander make-up (especially in light of the highlander/lowlander historic animosity) to honor what was THEN (NOT NOW!!!) seen as a highlander symbol, so much so it was outlawed.

The service, the kirkin', is DEFINATELY American (mostly US) in early practice. My own home church has one and I am thinking/working to have one where I serve now. If anyone wants to participate from the Upstate, SC, PM me and we can discuss it.

The most significant part of the service, from a sociological/historical viewpoint is the fusion of different elements of the diverse Scottish culture into a unified "Scottish Culture," combining lowland, highland, and western isles together, as well as the various religious strands in many cases. :confused:

(Off topic-> the downside of this is the bluring tends to obscure the complex cultural factors at work in the decision making processes around events, so that they become confusing and illogical in the resultant simplified history. A few examples are in the events surrounding the ACTUAL King Macbeth ( and Malcolm and Duncan), the Wars of Liberation around 1300, the reformation and the Wars of the Covenant (late 1500s and 1600s), and the Jacobite Rebellions (1689-1745). In ALL of these, I have read very BAD histories that are rooted more in the modern fusion of the Scots, than in trying to understand them as they actually WERE!!! )

I was more noting where things are NOW, especially interesting in light of where they WERE a couple centuries ago. THANKS, Walter Scott!!!