So and So of Such a Place?

[Nathan]

What is the official disgnation to be a so and so from such a place? For example, I'm assuming anyone can't really style themselves like this based on where they grew up and likely require some kind of official title over a particular territory to be Angus MacOnion of Potatoshire. Can someone who knows explain this?

[davidlpope]

See this page for explanation:

http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/616.html

[Joseph McMillan]

You've hit on one of the hot-button issues of Scottish--well, not heraldry exactly, but peripheral to heraldry.

What you're referring to is usually called a territorial designation, or TD for short.

The Lord Lyon Act of 1672 says (in modernized language) that "it is only allowed for Noblemen and Bishops to subscribe [i.e., to sign official documents] by their titles, and that all others shall subscribe their Christian names or the initial letter therof with their Surnames and may if they please adject the designations of their lands, prefixing the word 'of' to the said designations. And the Lyon King at Arms and his brethren [the other heralds] are required to be careful of informing themselves of the contraveners hereof."

So, according to Scottish statute law, if you own landed property, and your property has a name, you may sign legal documents adding "of [Property]" after your surname: "John Doe of Aberdoe." You don't need Lyon's permission to do this, but in principle (according to the 1672 law) you could get in trouble with him if you signed something "of" a place you didn't own.

This all gets complicated, however, by the use of names that have nothing particular to do with landed estates to distinguish chiefs and chieftains of clans, and by the association of lands that chiefs no longer own with the clan history. Thus Cameron of Lochiel hasn't actually held the territory of Lochiel for centuries, nor has MacMillan of Knap actually held the territory of Knapdale, but tradition sanctions the continued use of these designations even though they are arguably out of synch with the plain text of the statute.

It's also complicated by the perception that the "of" designation implies a sort of elevated social status, and so status-seekers have sometimes tried to game the system, and then have their gaming ratified by having Lyon "recognize" their TD in a grant or matriculation of arms. For example, you might buy up a stretch of beach that was underwater at high tide and therefore useless, give it a grand-sounding name that you then recorded in the land registers, and then approach Lyon for a grant of arms with this "of" designation attached. Then you'd be able to pass yourself off as the "chief" of, say, Campbell of Lowdown. This all sounds very silly and it was.

There was a small flurry of litigation a few years ago when Lyon Blair declined to continue playing this game. As I recall, the Court of Session ultimately ruled that Lyon could no longer take action against someone who added "of XYZ" to his name, but that neither could he be compelled to take notice of claims to such designations in his heraldic documents. This effectively deprived the people who tried to use the TD system as a vehicle for social climbing of one of their most prized weapons.

There's a lot more to be said and argued on this; the HSS forum is full of back and forth on the subject. But this is my simplified take having observed it all with morbid fascination for several years. (I once considered seeing if I could get Lyon to recognize my ancestral TD, "McMillan of the South Half of Section Six Township 21 South Range 4 East," but thought better of it.)

[creagdhubh]

Great link, David. I was just going to suggest the same page. Within the Clan Macpherson Association, we'll say "Duncan Macpherson of Montrose" and "Duncan Macpherson of Ontario," simply to distinguish the fact that our clan association as various members with the same name. This tends to happen a lot, especially with names such as John, Duncan, William, Ewen, James, Robert and Lachlan.

Of course there are many territorial designations attributed to particular Macphersons, most notably our chief, Sir William Alan Macpherson of Cluny and Blairgowrie, TD. Others include: Alastair Macpherson of Pitmain, Lachlan Macpherson of Glentruim, Duncan Macpherson of Banchor, Ewen Macpherson of Invereshie, etc. These prominent men of the clan (some of whom are landowners) are all chieftains of leading cadet branches of the Clan Macpherson, with some of the lineages being closer than others to that of our chief.

[Carlo]

I'm sure that this varies form one country to the next.
I know you might not be interested in how it is in Switzerland but I'm telling anyway

We do not have nobility as such, there is no Lord Lyon like figure either. So there would be no restriction on being Angus MacOnion of Potatoshire other than it is not normally used unless on your passport and identity card in some university exams...
What we do not use is the place where we grew up or were born, but our municipal citizenship.

In Switzerland you are citizen of a village, a canton and the state. Those citizenships are inherited from your father. So all my ancestors back to the reformation were Spiess of Anwil (Anwil being the village my ancestors moved/fled to from the village next to it during the reformation) and all my kids will be Spiess of Anwil until they change their name or adopt a different citizenship. There is no law that I can't use the name like that, but it obviously would make my name longer to write and since I'm lazy that is not an option

To answer your question, I don't know if you can of should do it. I know that I can, but don't unless I wan't to know if I'm related to another Spiess.

[Joseph McMillan]

Thanks Carlo. That explains a lot--like why my Swiss ancestors are Mohler of Diegten and Strub of Läufelfingen (both Basel Land).

[Carlo]

Thanks Carlo. That explains a lot--like why my Swiss ancestors are Mohler of Diegten and Strub of Läufelfingen (both Basel Land).

You are welcome
Since we do not have any law about heraldry (other than copyright), some families use family coats of arms.
Check:
Mohler of Diegten
Strub of Läufelfingen
They might have been given to them as late 1964, but they are still as valid as you can get in Switzerland.

[saharris]

I've thought about possibly using a territorial designation (TD). Not to fain nobility as "Laird of Brigadoon" or whatnot, but because my name is so frustratingly common. One site says that there are 3,231 Steven Harris living the US right now - that's less than 1 in 100,000 - not exactly unique.

[kiltedrennie]

I once considered seeing if I could get Lyon to recognize my ancestral TD, "McMillan of the South Half of Section Six Township 21 South Range 4 East," but thought better of it.

That's awesome!

[EagleJCS]

I've thought about possibly using a territorial designation (TD). Not to fain nobility as "Laird of Brigadoon" or whatnot, but because my name is so frustratingly common. One site says that there are 3,231 Steven Harris living the US right now - that's less than 1 in 100,000 - not exactly unique.

Got ya beat... try 8,079 men in the US with my name using the 2010 census info (or 9124 using public records searches)! Just by looking in the phone book, I know there are at least 10 men in the Louisville area with my same first and last names, and I know of three that also share the same middle initial! (I imagine there are more that don't have a published phone number, like me.) Two are close to my age (a few years older), which may explain why I'm getting AARP ads in the mail and on online pop-ups even though I'm not yet 44. I used to work at the same company with one, but never met the man - we worked in different buildings, but we were both in IS (me in software/support, him in networks).

Using a territorial designation wouldn't be practical in my case, unless I had a named property (like Mirkwood Farm or some such). It would really only be useful in situations like Kyle described: being in the same social group and having the same name as someone else, thus differentiating using a TD. Perhaps a better alternative would be to just use a nickname.