Help with clan sept

[David Dubh]

My daughters boyfriend is unsure if he is Scottish or Irish,his father is not around. His last name is McSweeney he is interested to know what his clan and tartan maybe. I know that the whole clan tartan thing is a post highland/Victorian revival thing. I have found MacSween as a sept of clan Donald as Am I. Any help enlightenment from the rabble would be appreciated.
slainte David

[slothead]

Well David, that's not quite as easy as I thought it would be. Nothing pops up in my references and the name McSweeney sure sounds Irish (from an outsider's perspective). Go with your gut though and wait for someone to prove or disprove.

[Bruce Scott]

This Wikipedia article may be of interest:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Sweeney

"Clan Sweeney is an Irish clan of Scottish origin."

"Clan Sweeney doesn't have a specific recorded tartan, however sweeneyclan.com encourages the use of the Scottish Clan MacQueen tartan. The MacQueen's also derive their name from the Gaelic MacSuibhne"

[Steve Ashton]

One of the hardest myths to dispel is the one - That if your people came from Scotland, you have a Clan affiliation.

The truth is a little less romantic. The Clan system was a Highland thing. The Highlands of Scotland are in the North and West of the country. Most of the East Coast and from the town of Stirling south are the Lowlands. Most of the population centers are in the Lowlands and the vast majority of Scots are not part of the Clan system, and/or do not have a Highland Clan affiliation.

You can be 100% Scottish, born and raised in Scotland and not be part of a Highland Clan.

The whole idea of Septs today is a recent idea. In truth each Clan Chief may accept, or not, those names or people who can be considered under his or her Clan. There is no single 'Official' Sept list.

The only way to know for sure would be to do your genealogy. This is not something that is done by typing your last name into a computer. It is a paper chase. Establishing a trail of birth certificates, marriage licenses, tax records and any other piece of paper in an unbroken trail from you back to your ancestors.

All of this is made harder by changes in names and changes in spelling of names. You have to remember that prior to very recent times most people did not read and write. Names were spelled phonetically.

And people move around. More so since the Industrial Revolution.

Some people spend a lifetime searching their ancestry. It is a rewarding, and very surprising at times, hobby. One of the best sources of help with compiling your genealogy may be the records held by the Mormons.

[David Dubh]

Thanks Steve
Doing genealogical research on his fathers side is not really possible as his dad did not stick around so tracing things for this young fellow is not a real possibility. But I will advise him to try to find out some information on his dad
Cheers David

[ctbuchanan]

This type of question comes up in my clan tent at highland festivals here in the US all the time. I try to differentiate between genealogy (which we do not do) as opposed to a desire to find some connection to a clan or tartan through a family name. This appears to be the later so here is my offering.

The Surname Database offers the following:MacSweeney
This interesting surname originates in Scotland as an Anglicized form of the Gaelic "Mac Suibhne", composed of the elements "mac" meaning son of plus "Suibhne" a personal byname meaning pleasant. Suibhene was Lord of Knapdale in Strathclyde circa 1200. Later this family emigrated to Ireland and established three septs in Tirconell (Co. Donegal) as MacSweeney in the 14th Century. Murrough MacSweeny was one of the famous galloglasses. Written in Gaelic as "galloglach", the word literally means "foreign young warrior", and denotes a mercenary soldier. On May 9th 1795, Anne, daughter of James Sweeney, was christened in Downpatrick, Co. Down, and on February 4th 1837, the marriage of Brian Sweeney and Catherine Sullivan took place in Castleisland Roman Catholic Church, Co. Kerry. On June 25th 1847, a famine emigrant, Jeremiah Sweeney, aged 23 yrs., embarked from Cork on the ship "Henry-Hobbs" bound for New York. A Coat of Arms granted to the family depicts a silver lizard on a green fess between three black boars passant on a gold shield. On the Crest is an armoured arm embowed holding a battle-axe, all proper. The first recorded spelling of the family name is shown to be that of Murrough MacSweeny, which was dated 1267, in the "Annals of Connacht", during the reign of King Henry III, known as "The Frenchman", 1216 - 1272.

So it would seem that the young man might wear the MacQueen and feel comfortable doing so IMHO.

[tripleblessed]

David, I note you are clan Donald. I met a cousin of mine for the first time at the clan Donald booth at the Stone Mountain Games. Here, they are
very involved with genealogy. You might check with your area hierarchy and ask if they have a historian, as they do here in Georgia. Both he and
my cousin are quite well informed; maybe someone there is equally qualified and eager.

As Steve noted above, the paper trail is the way to go. Always double check the work of others. I have had much trouble with the LDS site and
others, as some post info with NO basis beyond something they think they remember their grandmother said one time 60 years ago when they
were 5. These are a helpful starting place, and even when incorrect will often point you in a direction which will yield good info

As Steve also noted above, not every Scot is affiliated with a highland clan. However, it is often worth noting that the Scots Parliament read
the riot act (figuratively) to the Border clans. Their word, not mine. I have and will continue to suggest that members of Parliament 1590-1625
might well have had a better idea of who was a clan and who wasn't than we at this remove, regardless of our place of birth.

[Father Bill]

A personal perspective:

My reading tells me that in any given generation dating back for centuries, about 7% of the population has a father other than the one they thought they had. (I don't imagine that has changed much recently!) That being the case, your genetics and your family history are not likely much of a match once you get back a few generations and encounter that 7% a few times, so... where does your loyalty lie?

In my case, based on some history that I've been able to find, it appears to me that my family has links to the land around the Sinclairs both in Caithness and the Orkneys, and about Rosslyn that date back for centuries. That it's in both places is an indicator to me. To think that none of my ancestors ever married a local girl, and thus become clansmen by marriage, would be unimaginable. As my good friend, a fairly accomplished geneticist and historian has said, "Bill, they didn't keep good records on peasants, and you qualify as such, but under the circumstances, give it up - you're a Sinclair. Get over it." Further, Malcolm, the clan's Chief has said (in writing even!) that those who share the clan's philosophy and goals are welcome as clansmen. Thus, I've thrown in my lot with the Sinclairs and having done so, consider myself to be a Sinclair by both most likely history and by that welcome adoption. I don't intend to fret further over it.

Not all clan chiefs are of the same generous opinion, but for those who are, if you find some history that suggests it to you, you might wish to take advantage of their kindness.

I've often pointed out to folks that we each have two families: the one with which we share DNA, and the one that cares about us. There may or may not be overlap. The question then is, "With which family do you wish to share your life?" As a priest, I can even make a theological case for throwing in your lot with those who care about you and are kind to you rather than what the world calls "relatives", and since the clan has welcomed me so warmly, I consider them to be such. It makes life so much easier than endless and often fruitless searches.

To worry about being able to trace history or genetics seems to me, under the circumstances, to be wracked with potential for error, worry, and disappointment, so I think the happiest decision is to throw in your lot with those who welcome you and not beat yourself up any further trying to "prove" something that may not really be as provable as you might like, or as some might think.

Many will disagree and set out on the quest. Good for them; I wish them well, but hope that they will remember that the history and mythology of the quest tells us that it is inevitably fraught with danger, adventure, disappointment, and possibly even disaster, as much as, and more often than, triumph, so set out only if you know that you're willing to face those, and know that you have my wishes for good luck and my blessing, whichever course you take!

For me... I'm a proud and contented Sinclair because my most likely history, the chief, the clansfolk and I all say so, and I'll support MY clan at all times and in all ways.

[tripleblessed]

Father Bill, that may be the best I have seen on this subject. The issue of paternity is why some tribes around the world have preferred matrilineal
descent. The 7 to 10% likelihood of a "non-paternal event" is relevant to bozos like me who enjoy the challenge of digging back a thousand years.
Fortunately, the generally accepted view is if the husband accepted it, we should. Similarly in adoptions. The DNA is interesting, but as noted, no
hand wringing necessary. My view has always been that I'm more interested that what I have is the truth, not in what that truth "needs" to be.
We had always been told by both English and Welsh researchers and family members that our surname came from Wales/west England, the origin
being "that guy lives in a swamp". With DNA, we discovered those lines left what is now Denmark long ago enough to spend several hundred years
wandering through what is now Germany to settle in what is now Alsace-Lorraine. Hired by William to fight in his invasion of England, they became
Norman knights and got land and gentry status, and in some cases titles, almost all along both sides of Offa's Dike. On to Scotland with David I, they repeated that process. Most often peasants along the way, but much more gentry than expected, and more than enough titles to be somewhat
disconcerting. All interesting, and all contributing to who I am, but not, in itself, who I am. That's on me; not fair to blame them.

[georgeetta]

a term for foreign [scottish] ..mercenaries that came to ireland after ..robert bruce won scotland ..his enemies had to leave ..many were called gallowglasses or galogley ..about 1000 went to a ulster chief or king as his mercenaries ..

they had helpers called ..kerns . there are many picture s of them . there were more than just the macsweenerys ..that did this .

th