Origins of septs.....

[MacSpadger]

I've been pondering about the origins of Scottish clan septs, as they are understood today. When I was very young, I mean when I was around 5 or 6, I was told that as my surname was Sanderson I was part of a sept of MacDonnell of Glengarry. At least that's what the kilt maker in Inverness that was selling a kilt to my father said.

In those pre-internet days we looked at books for info, but there was a poster on the wall at school showing the map of the "Clans of Scotland", and on there my family name was listed as a sept of MacDonnell of Glengarry, sure enough.

When I was 10, however, I changed schools and began to learn and speak Gaelic as part of the cirriculum. There I was known as Adhamh MacAlasdair.
(Sanderson is short for Alexander's son. Alasdair is the Gaelic equivalent of Alasdair, ergo....). I have since been addressed in other Gaelic groups as MacAlisdair. This got me wondering why Sanderson was not considered a MacAlisdair/MacAlister name instead of MacDonnell.

Then, I researched my family tree throughout the 90's and found the Sanderson branch from Carnwath and their ancestors had been using the name Sanderson for hundreds of years, back to the 1500's at least.
No MacDonnells, no MacAlisdairs.

So, where does the "sept" biz come from?

In the 1930's book Clans, Septs & Regiments of the Scottish Highlands Thomas Innes says “septs must be regarded as a rather wonderful effort of imagination” and “The very word ‘sept’ is delusive and no serious attention can now be attached to Skene’s theories about ‘septs”.

From this comment I guessed he must mean Dr. W. F. Skene's book, The Highlanders of Scotland or his later work, Celtic Scotland. I had a look at the first of these, and boy, is it ever full of nonsense.

So, is the notion of clan "septs" yet another Victorian invention? I've noticed the fairly recent surge in attributing and registering Irish "clans" and "clan septs" that seem to be going hand in hand with seliing the fairly recent "Irish tartans" many of which were designed and are manufactured in Scotland.

I can't help but wonder if a similar thing happened to tartan hungry Scots in the Victorian era.

[Tartan Hiker]

As another Sanderson I look forward to this discussion.

(And welcome to XMTS, cousin!)

[Jock Scot]

A good question of which there is no real hard and fast answer. Whilst there may well be some names attached to clans as Septs which do most certainly have historical fact to back it up, the more cynical of us just regard much of the Sept lists as a cunning ruse of the tartan makers to sell more cloth. Nothing more.

[rtc872]

Jock said it best. Apparently my family, Christie, are a sept of Farquharson. Despite this, all attempts to follow the family history lead to nowhere near the "lands" of Farquharson.

If you look here it gives some ideas of the origin but to be honest all it tells me is that my family are most likely of Norse origin or at some stage in the distant past we had a particularly fervent Christian as an ancestor and wanted Christ in his name.

I am still trying to find out if in fact our family didn't start as some form of Gilchrist. It wouldn't be hard to take the step when Anglicising to drop the "Gil" and maintain the "christ" part.

I reckon even if your name is a clan name there is no proof that some ancestor was apart of that group or was anglicised to the same name or adopted it on whim for some reason or another.

I must say though that looking through family history is fascinating and worth every effort.

[BoldHighlander]

Jock said it best. Apparently my family, Christie, are a sept of Farquharson. Despite this, all attempts to follow the family history lead to nowhere near the "lands" of Farquharson.

In my case I can trace my Macranalds back to the lands of Keppoch & the Macdonells of Keppoch (of the Clan Donald).

As for my Scobie's (Scobee's /Scoby's), we're not sure exactly where in Scotland mine are from (just the year my ancestor was born in "Scotland"). All we know is the name orginated in Perthshire, and a Scobie went north to Mackay country, married the chief's daughter, and thereafter all Scobie's are listed as septs to clan Mackay.

As for my Stewart's, Grant's, etc, I don't have enough info on those lines yet to tell one way or the other.

[MacSpadger]

I must say though that looking through family history is fascinating and worth every effort.

Yes, I agree. I have been doing the family tree for around 20 years now. I have found a few "Clan" type names, MacMillan, MacCauley, MacGrigor, Robertson, Morrison, Fraser, etc. But, in all these cases these ancestors came from areas associated with the name. My own surname seems pretty much rooted in the centre of Scotland, no Hielan' bluid, despite a plethora of books and websites saying otherwise.

I have found no geographical or family connection with the MacDonnell of Glengarry clan. At the time of Skene's book, (The Highlanders of Scotland, their Origin, History, and Antiquities; with a sketch of their manners and customs, and an account of the clans in which they were divided, and of the state of society which existed among them, published 1837), the MacDonnell chief was called Alasdair. Perhaps the sept name was appropriated to go with the chief's forename? In Innes and Adam's Clans, Septs & Regiments of the Scottish Highlands there is an accusation to some clan historians of "sept snatching".

Obviously someone sat down at some point and made these sept lists up, as seems to be happening in the recent but burgeoning Irish tartan market today. There must be many other people who have surnames appropriated as septs without knowing why. I was just wondering if anyone had any further insight into the matter.

[BoldHighlander]

Obviously someone sat down at some point and made these sept lists up, as seems to be happening in the recent but burgeoning Irish tartan market today. There must be many other people who have surnames appropriated as septs without knowing why. I was just wondering if anyone had any further insight into the matter.

I'm sorry but I have nothing to add to your query, other than somewhere I once read something that primarily agrees with Jock's suspicions.

I have also heard that (modern) clan societies influence these lists as well....in the case of Clan Donald its through genealogical research (the addition or deletion of sept/clan names). As to the how or when their list was first developed, that I couldn't tell you.

[MacSpadger]

I'm sorry but I have nothing to add to your query, other than somewhere I once read something that primarily agrees with Jock's suspicions.

I have also heard that (modern) clan societies influence these lists as well....in the case of Clan Donald its through genealogical research (the addition or deletion of sept/clan names). As to the how or when their list was first developed, that I couldn't tell you.

Oh, I have been a frequest visitor to Skye over the years and have dropped in at the Clan Donald centre many times, there's a very good annual piping comp there, and the food is superb. However, they couldn't provide me with any instances at all of Sanderson being a sept, yet it's out there in print, and has been for a long time, around 160 years.

The pedantics are mad too, Sanderson is a sept of MacDonnell, but Sandison is a sept of Clan Gunn and Saunderson is a sept of Clan MacAlister? Jings, crivvens and Help ma Boab!!

Still, it's nothing to lose sleep over. I was thinking about getting another kilt and was dithering about going for a MacDonnell of Glengarry tartan. If there was a family connection it might have influenced my choice, that's all. As it happens, this has just left me as undecided as before. Thanks.

[MacSpadger]

Just for a final bit of fun, I have taken a group of ancestral names from my family tree research, I am a direct decendent of all the names listed. It has been surprisingly easy to find "septs" for a lot of them. Really; only 10-15 mins online. My poor old G-G-Grandmother Elizabeth Paul from the Isle of Mull has a choice of 4 clans pulling at her bones. They can't all be right!!

Angus, sept of the Clan MacInnes
Allen, sept of the Clan MacFarlane
Bain, sept of the Clan MacKay
Barclay, Clan Barclay
Baxter, Clan Baxter
Bissett, Clan Bissett
Blair, Clan Blair
Cheyne, sept of the Clan Cumming
Fenton, sept of the Clan Chisholm
Fowlie, sept of Clan Munro
Fraser, Clan Fraser
Gill, sept of the Clan MacDonald
Grigor, Clan MacGregor
Gregor, Clan MacGregor
Henderson, Clan Henderson
Laing, Sept of Clan Gordon or MacDonald
McCaig, sept of Clan MacLeod
McCauley, Clan MacCauley
McMillan, Clan MacMillan
Miller, sept of Clan MacFarlane
Mitchell, sept of Clan Innes
Morison, Clan Morrison
Morrison, Clan Morrison
Paul, given variously as septs of Cameron, MacIntosh, MacKay, Mackintosh
Philip, sept of MacDonnell (of Keppoch)
Robertson, Clan Robertson
Scott, Clan Scott

[M. A. C. Newsome]

A couple of points.

The word "sept" itself means "family." So to say "a sept of MacDonell of Glengarry," is the same as saying "a family of the MacDonell of Glengarry clan."

There is a common misconception, at least over here in the states, that the term "sept" is somehow derogatory and refers to a small, helpless group who were forced to be servants to a larger, more dominant clan. "Oh, my family was too small and weak to have their own tartan. We were absorbed by the MacDonalds and have to wear their tartan," is a common sentiment. But that's not at all what the term "sept" means.

I've taken to using the term "associated family" as it means essentially the same thing but doesn't have the same connotations with many people.

The other point to remember is that when one sees a name listed as a sept of a clan, it does not mean that all of that name are part of the clan. It only means that some of that name have, historically, been associated with that clan (assuming that whoever put the list together has done accurate research).

So, one will find Taylor listed as a sept of the Camerons, and Miller as a sept of MacFarlane, but that in no way means that all Taylors are Camerons (or even Scottish!), or all Millers MacFarlane. This is why one will often find the same name listed among multiple clans. It's not a contradiction. It simply refers to different families (or branches of families), living in different locations.

My mother's maiden name, and my middle name, is Allen. You'll find that name listed as a sept of clans MacDonald of Clanranald, MacKay, Grant, and MacFarlane. My mother's Allens, however, are English in origin. I know this because I have done the genealogical background on that part of the family. And that's really the only way to know for sure.

All the "clan sept lists" can tell me is that there are some Allens who are part of those four clans listed above. That list knows nothing about my family. It cannot tell me what clan, if any, I "belong to." It can only provide me with a good place to start, or point me in a direction for further research.

Now, in the case of Sanderson, the Gaelic equivalent would indeed be MacAlasdair (son of Alexander). Alasdair/Alistair/Alisdair, etc. is a rather common Gaelic forename. Consequently, the patronymic surname is not that unusual. All the surname means, on its face, is that you are descended from someone named Alexander. It does not necessarily mean that you are part of the MacAlister clan.

Now, the reality is that most of us simply do not have access to the kind of extensive genealogical record that would tell us, without a doubt, what "clan" our ancestors belonged to. So we look at our surname and we make assumptions. If your surname means "son of Alexander" and there is a clan called "son of Alexander" the common thing is to adopt that as your clan. Certainly no one would raise any eyebrows about a Sanderson joining the MacAlister clan, or a Donaldson joining Can Donald, or a Gregor in a MacGregor kilt. No one would expect that you'd have your pedigree documented back 500 years.

Another point is that oftentimes the same family may have been associated with more than one clan at different points in history, and clans can have associations with each other. For example, the small MacQuarrie clan on Ulva were followers of the MacDonalds in their heyday, but after the breakup of the Lordship of the Isles became followers of the MacLeans.

In the case of MacAlister and MacDonald of Glengarry, you'll find the names intimately associated. I'll quote from the Clan Donald web site.

The family of Glengarry are descended from Alister, second son of Donald, who was the eldest son of Reginald or Ranald (progenitor also of the Clanranald), youngest son of John, lord of the Isles, by Amy, heiress of MacRory. Alexander MacDonell, who was chief of Glengarry at the beginning of the 16th century, supported the claims of Sir Donald MacDonald of Lochalsh to the lordship of the Isles, and in November 1513 assisted him with Chisholm of Comer, in expelling the garrison and seizing the castle of Urquhart in Loch Ness. In 1527 the Earl of Argyll, lieutenant of the Isles, received from Alexander MacRanald of Glengarry and North Morar, a bond of manrent or service; and 1545 he was among the lords and barons of the Isles who, at Knockfergus in Ireland, took the oath of allegiance to the king of England, "at the command of the Earl of Lennox." He married Margaret, eldest daughter of Celestine, brother of John Earl of Ross, and one of the three sisters and coheiresses of Sir Donald MacDonald of Lochalsh. His son Angus or AEneas MacDonell of Glengarry, the representative, through his mother, of the house of Lochalsh, which had become extinct in the male line on the death of Sir Donald in 1518, married Janet, only daughter of Sir Hector MacLean of Dowart, and had a son, Donald MacDonell of Glengarry, styled Donald Mac-Angus MacAlister.

You can read further at http://www.macdonald.com/glengry.html

So when you find the name Sanderson listed as a sept of both clan MacDonell of Glengarry and MacAlister, it is not really a contradiction, but simply a reflection of the history of these two names.