Which tartan for MacClive?

[MacCorquodale]

Hi all.
My last name is McClive and my Great-grandfather, on my Grandmother's side, is a MacCorquodale.

My Grandfather Ian Robert McClive came to the USA In 1907 and was born in, and immigrated from, Ayrshire.

I have been searching the internet for 20 years now and can finally afford a kilt and was wondering which clan McClive, formerly MacClive, would belong to or which tartan would be appropriate. I have found a few sites that say it would be a sept of Stewart of Appin. Is this correct and would Stewart be appropriate if Stewart of Appin isn't available?

Since my Great-Grandfather is a MacCorquodale, I recently ordered a kilt in the MacLeod tartan, since that is considered a sept and MacCorquadale isn't available from that company in PV.

The rest of my family seems to be also all scots that moved to the south in the late 1600's and early 18th century. These include Clarks and Carswells.

Sorry for the newbie questions, but I'm a bit confused as you can see.

Thanks in advance!

Tim

[Nathan]

Hi Tim,

This is a tough one. It's a rare name and there's not much online about it at all.

http://www.kiltmakers.com/tartan/septs/mac says Stewart of Appin, but does not provide a source or any logic.

The Wikipedia page on Stewart of Appin and Stewart of Appin page on Scotsclans don't list MacClive as a sept but they do list the following name(s):

MacLeay, MacClay, Livingstone

So MacLeay and MacClay are the same name which is its own Clan along with Livingston. If we go with the theory that MacClay comes from the Gaidhlig "Mac an Léigh", (pronounced Mac in Lee) it's possible that MacClive is a variation of this name. What becomes even more interesting is when we look at the competing etymology put forward by some which is "Mac Dhunnshleibhe" (Son of Leving's town) which would be pronounced somewhat like MachKGunnlive because BH=V in Gaelic. There is no English equivalent to the DH in Gaidhlig, but if we look at the end of the word which sounds like "live" We can see that the first bit is Mac and the end is Live. As I understand it, the h makes the s in the middle silent.

Which brings us to "Livingston". The first syllable is "Liv" like Clive. It comes from Dhùn Lèibhe which translates as Leving's Town or more accurately, Leving's fortification. It is not surprising then that there is a place in Midlothian where MacClays and MacKinleys lived called Livingston and the Gaelic for that place is...Baile Dhùn Lèibhe which roughly equals Town/Village Fort of Leving. So if you were someone from Livingston, would you not be a Son of Leving or Living? It would therefore follow that could choose to refer to yourself as a "Mac (son of) Leibhe (Leving)" which would be pronounced MacLive/McClive/MacClive rather than anglicizing to Livingston. By the same logic a Mac Leibhe could also be descended from the "Leibhe" after whom the town was originally named.

From Livingston to Ayr is only a 70 mile journey so it's not out of the question that your family originated in or around Livingston as part of Clan MacLeay/Livingston and eventually moved to Ayrshire.

There is also an etymologically plausible theory of a connection between the Livingstons and the Dunlevy family which finds its roots in Ireland.

This page may connect some dots I've left out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacLea

I do find some of it questionable. Specifically, the part that says "Mac Dhunnshleibhe, meaning son of Donn Sléibhe (son of + the brown haired, or chieftain + of the mountain)" because in my view, here they erroneously confuse the Gaelic donn (brown) with the Gaelic Dunn (fort/town).

So while it doesn't make most sept lists of Stewart of Appin, I'd say that whatever tartan vendor listed the name among them wasn't completely off base. It's at least plausible.

Both Clan Stewart of Appin and Clan MacClay/Livingston have DNA projects. It might be worth taking a swab and seeing if there are any hits.

Alternatively, you could just buy a kilt in the Ayrshire district tartan like you can see here:

http://www.scotweb.co.uk/tartan/Ayrs...Colours-/48267

Or design and register a MacClive tartan here or on several other sites:
http://www.scotweb.co.uk/tartandesign/

It's a very rare name, so my money is that it's a rare variation of some better known name. Livingston is a plausible guess to me.

[Domehead]

Brilliant stuff.
'S math a rinn thu, Nathan. (I think that's correct)

Ryan

[Nathan]

Brilliant stuff.
'S math a rinn thu, Nathan. (I think that's correct)

Ryan

Tapadh Leibh, 'A Rhiain.

[creagdhubh]

Well said indeed, Nathan. In regards to Scottish genealogical research, sometimes it's more about where in Scotland your family actually came from as opposed to your actual surname. This, in my opinion, is especially important when dealing with sept ("associated families," is my preferred terminology) names.

[figheadair]

An anglicised Gaelic name in a non-Gaelic area (Ayrshire in this case) can be especially difficult. Other English spelling variations include: MacCleve, MacCleive, MacClieve, MacClevee, MacClieve and MacCleavey etc. Drop second 'c' and there are all the variants of MacLieve, MacLevee, MacLevy etc.

It is often the case in the south west of Scotland that may 'Mac' name come from Ireland. My bet is that this is the case here see the link to counties Antrim and Down via the surname Mac Duinnshléibhe - http://www.sloinne.ie/surname/en/macleavy/. The claimed links with the Stewarts of Appin is tenuous and Nathan's suggestion of the Ayrshire tartan is logical.

[creagdhubh]

It is often the case in the south west of Scotland that may 'Mac' name come from Ireland. My bet is that this is the case here see the link to counties Antrim and Down via the surname Mac Duinnshléibhe - http://www.sloinne.ie/surname/en/macleavy/. The claimed links with the Stewarts of Appin is tenuous and Nathan's suggestion of the Ayrshire tartan is logical.

Fantastic point here, Peter. Absolutely spot on. And I agree, I would more than likely go with the Ayrshire district tartan.

[Nathan]

While the Stewart of Appin link is indeed tenuous, the Clan Livingstone/MacLeay link may be valid. Compare what Peter shared about the Irish family with this from the Clan Livingstone site:

http://www.clanlivingstone.com/Dunsleve.htm

It is also worth noting how close a boat ride it is from Counties Down and Antrim to Ayr.

[creagdhubh]

The rest of my family seems to be also all scots that moved to the south in the late 1600's and early 18th century. These include Clarks and Carswells.

The surname of Clark (Clerich) has long been established as a traditional associated family name with the Clan Macpherson. Currently, we have quite a few Macpherson clansmen and clanswomen that have the surname of Clark, Clarke, Clarkson, Clerich, or Clerk. Of course, as I previously stated, a surname is often just the tip of the iceberg and a good start. Further genealogical research determining where in Scotland your various Scottish ancestors emigrated from will shed more of a conclusive light, as well as helping you determine which tartan you would like to wear.

http://www.clan-macpherson.org/assocfamilies.html

[Nathan]

The surname of Clark (Clerich) has long been established as a traditional associated family name with the Clan Macpherson. Currently, we have quite a few Macpherson clansmen and clanswomen that have the surname of Clark, Clarke, Clarkson, Clerich, or Clerk. Of course, as I previously stated, a surname is often just the tip of the iceberg and a good start. Further genealogical research determining where in Scotland your various Scottish ancestors emigrated from will shed more of a conclusive light, as well as helping you determine which tartan you would like to wear.

http://www.clan-macpherson.org/assocfamilies.html

That's absolutely correct, and even when you know where your ancestors emigrated from, it's just an educated guess because people moved around Scotland.

Case in point, I know I'm a MacDonald of Clanranald because my father told me and his father told him and all of our distant cousins know also etc... However, my ancestors came to Nova Scotia from the Isle of Lewis which is MacLeod of Lewis territory, not Clanranald territory. The Clanranald were centred around Caste Tioram, Arisaig, South Uist etc... so even though Lewis was controlled by the Lordship of the Isles long ago, it was never really Clanranald territory and the MacLeods had ascended to control it for quite some time before 1804.

My point is that if I had just known that I was a MacDonald with an ancestor from the Isle of Lewis and didn't have the Clanranald oral tradition in my family, I likely would not have figured it out from those clues alone.

It's really tough to reconstruct it once the clan tradition is broken in a family. I'd hazard a guess that there are many people who saw their name on a sept list, bought a tartan and were off base about their actual family line. Especially people with physically descriptive or occupational names which pop up everywhere and therefore on everyone's list. Add that to the fact that people can have the same surname but be coincidentally descended from different people with the same name.