Figuring who is what...

[tky58]

I am an American.

No doubt about it. As such I represent the "Great Melting Pot". I have the blood of Irishmen and Scots and (I believe) English running through my arteries. As such I claim (like a good American) a historical link to their combined histories and traditions. We feel it is the merging of those spices that give us the unique and wonder flavor that is American.

But since I began to wear a kilt several years ago I began to wonder how exactly should one figure out whose ancestry is, well.... dominant.
Ask me 20 or more years ago I would have said Irish. Both of my maternal grandparents came over as children from Skibbereen, County Cork. And both named Murphy (though not related). By that I figure by bloodline is 50% Irish.

My father's side is a little less well defined. My sur name is Wilson, which is a name found just about everywhere over there. However, some research performed by late uncle (which I haven't seen personally) suggests that MY Wilson is from England. My paternal grandmother is a McNeil who I believe is from Barra by way of Nova Scotia (and therefore several generations removed).

As an American, I claim all their ancestry and would have no trouble wearing a Saffron Kilt or the McNeil of Barra tartan. I might have a little difficulty wearing a Wilson tartan, though less because Wilson may be English Wilson and not Scotch Wilson but because I think it has too much orange in it. That is probably the Irish American Catholic from Boston comming out. I was taught to dislike that color in favor of green, especially on St. Patricks Day - though not by my Mother, but by society in general.

But the question which prompted me to type at 1:30 in the morning when I need to be at work in a few hours is this: (everyone sighs)

If I were to be as strict as say Jock Scot (no slight intended) would I have a right to claim affiliation with the McNeil clan at that distance in the bloodline? How far back can you go and not be an American who is stretching things?

Steven Wilson

PS: I only own one kilt and that is in the Leatherneck tartan for the US Marine Corps, which I have every legimate right to claim. I am considering buying a Douglas Tartan kilt to honor my wife's clan affiliation. As I said I am an American and that would be not only proper but aplauded in American culture.

PPS: let me say, Jock that I consider it an honor that, despite being a defender of everything Scottish, you choose to quote an American (John Wayne) in your tag line.

[EagleJCS]

I too am an American mutt. I know for certain my bloodlines on both sides have German and English roots, plus Irish (on Dad's side), Luxembourger (on Mom's side), and possibly some Welsh and/or Scots roots waaayyy back. My most recently emigrated ancestor was my father's father's mother, who came with her family from Ireland (Toome, County Antrim) in 1903 at the age of 11. The best I have been able to discover so far, the rest of my direct ancestors have been in the US/Colonies since the mid-1800's or earlier.

Given that my surname is Scott, I chose to wear the Scott tartan(s) and joined the Clan Scott Society, even though my Scott bloodline goes back at least 210 years in the Commonwealth of Kentucky alone, and we may not be Scottish at all (as there are English and Irish Scotts as well, neither related to each other nor to the Scottish Scotts).

I'd say since your surname is Wilson, you'd probably best wear the Gunn tartan (it's my understanding that Wilson is one of the septs of Clan Gunn) than any other named tartan - if we're going by strict interpretation.

That said, wear what you like, as long as you know what you're wearing and why, just in case anyone should ask.

[Jock Scot]

Hello there, no slight taken whatsoever.

I don't consider myself "strict" at all and I find it interesting that you and others consider that perhaps I am! I just voice opinions based on ethics and conventions that I have grown up with and lived with for three score years and ten---plus a tad. I have to accept that things change and in fact have embraced many changes in many things over time, American tractors, German combine harvesters for example, provided----I repeat, provided---- that those changes are for the better.

The kilt is no different, except that it is a country's national attire which inevitably carries with that, traditions, conventions, emotions and history that I do point out from time to time, to remind those that have either forgotten, or are unaware of them. Whether any one takes heed of my words is another matter entirely!

So to the eyes of this Scot, with Norman, Australian, English, German roots(those roots are never a day to day consideration, they are just there) I do watch kilt attire trends and thus far, I have seen very few that are improvements on the basic 1900/1960's version. But you never know, something may turn up ere long!

It is usual to wear the tartan, if there is one, of your surname, Wilson in your case and not one person will ever question your choice-----why should they for goodness sake? Is there really any need for a two hour justification lecture of the tartan you are wearing ? Well no, not really. You are a Wilson and you are thinking of wearing a Wilson tartan-----enough said surely.

With the greatest of respect, I think you are mixing cultures which is complicating your thinking, to come up with the result that suits your needs rather than going with convention --------Scot's convention. American, Irish conventions and religious likes and dislikes have nothing whatsoever to do with the Scots tartan that you may want to wear. If you add those other three cultures to the equation, fine though they may be, you would probably be best advised to get a tartan list and a pin!

As to using the words of a proud American, it is not a problem for me, as the Scots do not have the monopoly of fine words.

[Pleater]

Hello cousen - my father's mother was born a Wilson.

Her father's family were engineers working on the steam engines which powered the dark satanic mills of Yorkshire, her mother's side were midwives who would probably have been accused of witchcraft in earlier times.

It is probably through the Wilson line that Dupeynes contracture affected my father, and is now showing up in my brother's hands.

I don't think it is worth losing sleep over - go with what you feel - if the Wilson tartan doesn't strike a cord with you then look at the Gunn ones - look for something with which you feel in harmony.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

[ForresterModern]

Trying to be as traditional as possible I am following the patrilineal heritage for my "link" to my scottish ancestry. Although there are a few sketchy parts of the as documented lineage, I have about 14 generations of Foster males traced back to what we believe was our immigrant forebearer, who actually departed London, England, we believe in 1635. There are perhaps another 12-15 generations before that of Forsters or Forresters leading back to the Scottish Borders somewhere in that period (landowners in southern England, extreme northern England -- Northumberland-- and southern Scotland, almost exclusively below the Firth of Forth). We were a prominent family there for several centuries but never officially a clan, and definitely not kilt wearing tartan weaving highlanders. We were loosely aligned with various portions of the Douglas clan/clans, another prominent Border clan but also with some highland heritage, and one of the older and prominent tartan traditonal patterns. Tracing back from there leads through a major lieutenant (a Forrestiere---supposedly the first to actually wear the name) of the leader of the Norman Conquest, William the Conqueror of France, to the Counts of Flanders in the Lowlands of what is now Belgium and Holland, for multiple generations, which is where our trail is lost in the mists of pre-recorded history. Enough with the history lesson.

So why should a guy who is probably at least 25 or more generations and probably 600-700 years separated from his last patrilineal scots relative, who did not have a family tartan or likely even wear the kilt, wearing a kilt and owning several of them in a variety of tartans? I wear my Forrester "family" tartans, which are about 45 years old for the Modern and 20 years old for the Hunting, according to the design registrations. Historic? Not really, but still something to hold onto, and a "clan" to which to belong that shares at least some common heritage. I also wear several of the Douglas clan tartans, because of the allegiance relationships that were there so many centuries ago in the Borders of Scotland, probably before tartan was being made into kilts, but what the heck, again at least something to hang my historical hat on. There are likely a few Scottish Forresters/Forsters/Fosters who today would consider themselves part of the Douglas clan and wear their tartan. I most recently acquired a kilt in Dutch Friendship Tartan, to honor the "origins" of my family from Flanders and the lowlands of what is today Belgium and historically was part of both France and Holland. Also to honor my wife, a first generation American of Dutch parents/immigrants.

I have a few district/regional tartans I wear simply because I like them (Isle of Skye, Maple Leaf, Anc Caledonia and Black Isle) as well as a couple MacDonald clan kilts because I originally thought our family was a sept of MacDonald (what most of the books say but probably not very true in our case---unlikely that southeast scottish lowlanders had much to do with northern and northwestern scottish highlanders and islanders historically) but I can find no particular ties in our specific history. I also wear a kilt in the Braveheart movie tartan because I like its look, liked the movie (regardless of its accuracy or lack thereof historically). All my kilts are traditional wool 8 yarders, except one PV 8 yarder, one 6yd Kingussie and one Strome wool 6 yd casual build.

Through my geneological searches I have found links to numerous other family surnames of predeominantly german, english, scottish, scots-irish, irish, french, italian, and even native american origins, although (with the exception of one which supposedly traces back to Charlemagne---yeah right, me french royalty---hard enough to believe the Counts of Flanders and William the Conqueror association) none of those lines are very well traced and documented. There is a particularly unusual three consecutive generations of Foster-Allen hillbilly marriages (all cousins) resulting in me having technically more Allen blood in me than Foster (and 6 toes on my right foot---just kidding), which I honor with my Allen 1996 kilt (another modern tartan invention). Otherwise I choose to not pursue wearing any tartans that might relate to the other relations, regardless of whether they are legitimate links to my ever distant scottish past.

We each have our names, and the names of our relatives, and our own individual pasts and family lineages and relationships that in all cases go back through the years, some documented better than others, and some with shorter roots back to Scotland, some with longer lines to follow to get there (and beyond), and others with no real "legitimate" documented connection at all. What is my point you may be asking, between yawns, at this juncture? That each of us finds his or her own connections and reasons and logic that allows in our own minds to wear whatever tartans we feel most closely represent our link to that past-----why we as individuals feel the desires to wear the kilt in whatever tartan we choose for ourselves. There are conventions to follow historically, but even those are only a few generations/centuries old at best. Make your geneological searches to the degree you feel you can or need to, make your choices to wear the kilt or not and in what tartan--family, clan, sept, regional, occupational, military, or other relationship. And wear it with pride and honor to all who wear it now and those who have come before us. Find your own reasons, and then (to quote a well worn Nike advertisement)---- Just Do IT!

And never let anyone tell you you can't. Alba gu brath.

[Laird_M]

From my own research, by definition, if you had a direct family clan link, you could wear the Clan tartan excluding the Chieftans and his DIRECT family tartan.
If you were a bondsman, you could also wear it to show your vassalage.
If you sort protection from the Clan, you were also entitled to wear it as you would be expected to pay tithes/support the standing force etc.

With records only recently being available to all via the various ancestry websites, it is easier to trace those links except for the vassalage, but due to many scribes who performed the various census over the years recording names phonetically, and if the person had any speech impediment or unfamiliar/strong accent, plus with people changing spellings themselves for various reasons, these things should only be taken with a certain amount of surety.

Add to that the fact that buildings burnt down, flooded etc it can make it even more suspect as records were either lost completely or rebuilt from other sources who had the same issues, it gets even harder.

Also when you add transaltions of foreign names of peopel who fled persecution, etc, into the mix...

My brother 'researched' a VERY linear and short family tree and 'proved':

1. We have no Scottish connection;
2. We have no Welsh connection;
3. The oral lore of the family was 'made up';
4. Our father was adopted (news to his elder brother and uncle...)
5. He has remarried 8 times; and
6. He has 12 other children aside from the 6 of us...
7. A friend who was a professional genealogist didn't know what he was doing when he traced our family as a wedding present.

If you can find a connection, however looesly, rejoice in it. If you prefer one plaid over another, where it.
Aside from the Chiefs personal plaid and corporate plaid, you can in reality wear pretty much any plaid you like. Only those who are plaid Gollums woudl challenge you and even if its not your direct family plaid, very few would complain but would appreicate the honour you do by helping keep the plaid alive.

A lot of people wear plaid because of fashion - but what 'right' do they have aside from the fact that they paid ridiculous amounst of money to be fashionable.

Wear what you feel comfortable wearing and rejoice in your 'melting pot' heritage. Steel is stronger and more durable than iron, afterall.

[Meggers]

I grew up very proud of my heritage (my dad pretty much sat me down in front of Braveheart when I was about 5 years old and then went out and bought me Scottish Barbie and the soundtrack the same day) and displaying my Scottish and Irish roots has always been very important to me. However, I will say that I try not to cross a line by confusing myself as "Scottish or Irish" over being American. At the end of the day, I was born and raised in America, conditioned in American culture, and this is the only country ive even seen. Ive never been to Ireland and Scotland so fancying myself "A Scot" or "an Irishwoman" would be a little incorrect, and probably a little irritating to people from Ireland and Scotland.

I see no problem whatsoever with Scot/Irish Americans owning kilts regardless of how far back they can trace their ancestory because Americans love to hold on to their ancestorial past because America is too new of a country to have many substancial roots that bonding with heritage can offer. The only thing that I would be careful about is claiming to be part of a specific clan or showing pride for a specific clan unless you ARE part of the clan. I think showing basic Scottish or Irish pride is absolutely justifiable regardless of how far removed you are as long as you are aware that you are Scot/Irish-AMERICAN and not a Scot or an Irishman.

I am not terribly far removed from the motherlands since I still own the death certificates of my Scottish and Irish ancestors (I think I am only 4 generations removed) but my last name is very hard to trace to a particular clan. Walker is a very common last name and I've heard a lot of different things that we teamed up with bigger clans or were part of another clan but used the name "walker" as an alias, etc. etc. Claiming a clan is somethign that I would love to do but I dont have enough knowledge to even know where to start looking. I would have to go to Scotland and trace my great-great-etc. grandfather, Robert Walker, back even further to see where his line goes.

As for displaying pride in tartans, I certainly do plan to own a number of them but I feel I have full right to wear the ones that I have my eye on: County Cork, Ireland considering my Irish family came from Cork and I have the certificates of them, American National, and if we can trace Robert Walker, it would be nice to get his district tartan as well. If I can't trace myself back to a specific clan, I plan to stay away from clan tartans since they seem a little more personal and specific. At least to me.

[SoSelkirk]

As the family genealogist for 40 years, I have come to expect the unexpected and never assume anything...

I assumed any direct connection to Scottish blood was through my children and their mother's extensive Scottish bloodlines, Wilson, Fordyce, etc.

My family is of northern European descent, and pretty well documented back to the country of origin, thanks to pretty extensive church and bible records.

While a child, my last name became that of my stepfathers, and even though it is Hayes, it was always explained to may as a contraction of O'Hayes. On behalf of my half-brother, I discovered actual signatures of his Great-Grandfather, that it was actually Hay, and so probably the Irish connection is false, and probably Scotch instead.

So to my surprise, after receiving the family records of my mom's father, I was able to find someone who was able to translate a letter written in (old) Norwegian from my grandfather to his sister. That pointed me to a small valley in central Norway, and a direct connection to local genealogy that upon inquiry, because the efforts of the Catholic church and Danish tax collectors since the 1100's, is generally considered to be very accurate.

Well, lo and behold, I am a direct descendant of the Norwegian female side of the Dugals of Kintyre, so I am finally a MacDugall. Who would a thought??? Another discovery, there are actually several registered tartans prior to the 1800's from the Valdres area of Norway-one of which is my avatar.

My advice to anyone researching their family history is to suspect everything, and try to develop a confirmation of every connection through a different path.

Finally, enjoy the search, you will discover more about yourself, than about any particular relative.

[TheBrus]

[QUOTE=tky58;1022850]As an American, I claim all their ancestry and would have no trouble wearing a Saffron Kilt or the McNeil of Barra tartan. I might have a little difficulty wearing a Wilson tartan, though less because Wilson may be English Wilson and not Scotch Wilson but because I think it has too much orange in it. That is probably the Irish American Catholic from Boston comming out. I was taught to dislike that color in favor of green, especially on St. Patricks Day - though not by my Mother, but by society in general.
[/QUOTE=tky58;1022850]

As a Brus (pr Bruce), I claim to have Scottish "cousins." I do so, because having relatives in Western Europe, I can naturally assume that our earliest ancestor was a Norman--like Robert de Brus. At some point those Normans went forth and conquered, as they were ever wont to do, some of their offspring ended up in Holland, where my grandfather's grandfather emigrated from. I'm a GD Dutch. Other branches of the family tree are doubtlessly living in Sweden, Germany, Norway, France, Belgium, Britain... who knows maybe even Eastern Europe and Russia. But I love to wear the kilt--especially the Bruce tartan. Sure, it's a stretch. But less of a stretch when I also wore a Wilson tartan, because I lived for several years in Wilson Hall, a dormatory at Iowa State University. My Wilson tartan tank was in the Wilson modern tartan. So I can speak with authority in saying that there is no orange in the tartan. If you can find one in Wilson modern, you'll have a lovely green and red kilt with blue accents that form a wonderfully complex pattern.

[Gael Ridire]

EagleJCS : Wondering where your Scott family in Kentucky is from? I have Scotts from Shelby/Woodford area counties who's father was Hector Scott who came about 1730 to Virginia from Scotland. He had three known sons: Moses (my ancestor), Arthur, and Archeleus (spelled many different ways).