Murray/Blackwatch. Why so similar.?

[DaveMurray]

Hello all. I've been able to trace my roots fairly far back, and was told I was related to a duke of Atholl. We've always have had roots in the military as well. So the question is why are the two tartans (murray of atholl & blackwatch) so similar? Even the really nice dress tartan that's lighter in color look darrn near the same. Thoughts?

[Jock Scot]

I am no tartan expert, but many clan tartans seem to have a Black Watch "foundation" with extras added. Although the Campbell tartan, for example, and the Black Watch tartan are to all intents and purposes the same. There is usually no real significance to many of the tartan colours, certainly with the older ones, so just regard the tartans offered to and chosen by our ancestors(the Clan Chief usually) as "it was a good idea at the time" and leave it at that.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

To further what Jock has said, many recognized clan tartans are variations of the Black Watch. This is due to the fact that many clan tartans have military origins.

I did an article on this some time back:
http://www.alanach.org/military_origins.html

I can be assumed that many of these clan tartans date back to the eighteenth or early nineteenth centuries and were used first in the uniform of certain military regiments and the like. The common practice was to take the standard "government sett" and difference it.

So the Gordon Highlanders wore the Black Watch tartan with a yellow stripe on the green. The Seaforth Highlanders wore the Black Watch with a white stripe on the green and red stripes on the blue. The Loyal Clan Donnachaidh Volunteers wore the Black Watch tartan with a red stripe on the green and white stripes on the blue. The Baillie Fencibles wore a version of the Black Watch with yellow and red stripes.

There are all manner of what we think of today as "clan tartans" which have a military origin and are based on the Black Watch pattern, including Forbes, Lamont, MacLachlan, MacNab, and your Murray of Atholl tartan.

The transition from a military tartan to a clan tartan is not entirely documented, but its not hard to imagine. Many of these military regiments has close affiliations with one or more clans. Jock mentioned that the Black Watch tartan is worn by the Campbells as their clan tartan. It's also worn as a Hunting tartan by the Grants and Munros. This is because these clans have a very close affiliation, historically, with the Black Watch.

Likewise the Gordon Highlanders were closely identified with the Gordon clan, as were the Seaforth with Clan MacKenzie, and the Atholl Highlanders with Clan Murray.

One can easily imagine the men from these clans enlisting, serving in the regiments, proudly wearing the tartan of the regiment and continuing to wear that tartan even after their service. One can easily imagine these soldiers' family members adopting use of the tartan in a show of solidarity and support for their boys in uniform. Because the tartan identified with the regiment, and the regiment is identified with the clan, it is no great leap to also identify the tartan with the clan.

And so we have many clan tartans today, including your Murray of Atholl, with military origins - and many of these are based on the Black Watch sett.

[DougC]

Silly question time--why are the Campbell tartan and the Blackwatch the same (excepting tone--one is lighter and the other is darker)? Oops--missed it in your post.

[Four]

Is the black watch tartan a variation of other common hunting tartans?

I ask because i read somewhere, that the Kerr Hunting tartan, was also referred to "a black watch tartan" which implies that there are many black watch tartans.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Doug,

Actually, there is no "color difference" between Black Watch and Campbell, technically speaking. The one and the same tartan is simply used by various groups and so called by different names: Black Watch, Government Sett, 42nd, Argyll & Sutherland, Campbell, Grant Hunting, Munro Hunting.

The perceived difference in color stems from a few factors. One is that traditionally the tartan worn by the 42nd (Black Watch) has been woven in very dark hues. The A&S Highlanders, who wore the same tartan, had it woven in somewhat lighter hues until the mid 1980s when the two regiments started wearing the same cloth.

Today, the Royal Regiment of Scotland still wears the Black Watch tartan, but if you look at photos of their uniform now, compared to past photos of the 42nd Regiment, you'll see that the shade of green used in the current uniform is much lighter.

Outside of the military, of course, one does not simply have to wear the tartan the regiment provides. Since the early 20th century, the Campbell tartan (as with many other clan tartans) has been woven in a variety of color shades, such as ancient, muted, reproduction/weathered, etc.

The current Duke of Argyle, and I believe his predecessor, as well, favored the ancient colors. Perhaps this was intentional, to avoid confusion with people wearing the tartan as the Campbell Clan tartan and those wearing it as the Black Watch tartan (just speculation on my part). It could just as easily have been a personal choice on behalf of the chief as he liked the colors better!

But whatever the reason, because the chief favored the ancient colors, many in the clan also choose to wear the tartan in the ancient colors.

But really there is no technical difference between the Black Watch and Campbell tartan. In fact many mills today sell "Black Watch" in the ancient and weathered colors, which is exactly the same as "Campbell" in the ancient and weathered colors.

Four,
I've never heard Kerr Hunting referred to as "a black watch tartan." The pattern of the Kerr Hunting tartan is quite distinct from the Black Watch, although the colors used are the same, so perhaps someone was simply referring to the similarity of the colors?

[Four]

Four,
I've never heard Kerr Hunting referred to as "a black watch tartan." The pattern of the Kerr Hunting tartan is quite distinct from the Black Watch, although the colors used are the same, so perhaps someone was simply referring to the similarity of the colors?

I had never heard it referred to it that way either. but i've been recieving Clan Kerr newsletters ever since i signed up for them when i went to my first highland games in jan of this year, it says this under a section titled "Your Tartan"


"Clan Carr/Kerr tartans are among the most handsome. They consist of three different patterns/colors: our MODERN tartan, which is bright reds and greens; our ANCIENT tartan, which is a faded rendition of the modern tartan; and a third known as the HUNTING tartan. The latter is beautiful dark green and blue mixture. Because the Carr/Kerr clansmen were such valiant warriors and protectors of the border areas, Scotland’s ‘shock troops’ so to speak, they were amongst the first to encounter and slow down England’s never-ending effort to subdue the Scots’ freedom-loving ways. The hunting tartan is almost perfect camouflage when set against the heavy greens of Scotland’s country side.

The tartan was later adopted as that of the famous “Black Watch,” and is currently so-named. For examples of what the three look like, search the web for ‘tartans’ and you will find all three. "

[macwilkin]

And to add to Matt's post, the Murray of Atholl tartan is also associated with two other Scottish regiments, the Scottish Horse and the Transvaal Scottish Regiment of South Africa. Both regiments were raised by the Duke of Atholl after the Boer War. The Transvaal Scottish will be celebrating their 110th anniversary of the raising of the regiment this year.

The "Jocks" regimental association web site is: http://www.jocks.co.za/. I was invited to be an associate member last year, and I am proud to be affiliated with them.

T.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

"Clan Carr/Kerr tartans are among the most handsome. They consist of three different patterns/colors: our MODERN tartan, which is bright reds and greens; our ANCIENT tartan, which is a faded rendition of the modern tartan; and a third known as the HUNTING tartan. The latter is beautiful dark green and blue mixture. Because the Carr/Kerr clansmen were such valiant warriors and protectors of the border areas, Scotland’s ‘shock troops’ so to speak, they were amongst the first to encounter and slow down England’s never-ending effort to subdue the Scots’ freedom-loving ways. The hunting tartan is almost perfect camouflage when set against the heavy greens of Scotland’s country side.

The tartan was later adopted as that of the famous “Black Watch,” and is currently so-named. For examples of what the three look like, search the web for ‘tartans’ and you will find all three. "

Sorry to say it, but that information quoted from your clan's newsletter is incorrect.

There are actually two Kerr tartans, not three. Those two are the Kerr tartan, and the Kerr Hunting tartan.

Either of these two tartans can be woven in a number of different color schemes, including ancient, modern, muted, and weathered/reproduction.

The tartan they refer to as the "ancient Kerr" is simply the Kerr tartan woven in the so-called ancient color scheme. They recognize this in their description of it, but it's not correct to treat it as a seperate and distinct tartan. The Hunting Kerr can also be woven in the ancient color scheme, after all.

Their history of the Kerr Hunting tartan, especially their suggestion that the Black Watch tartan was based upon it, is flat out wrong.

The original Kerr tartan (the red one) first appeared in 1842 in the Vestiarium Scoticum. (This was the first appearance for many of the lowland tartans). I'm not entirely certain when the Hunting Kerr was introduced, but it was sometime before 1950 and certainly after 1842, as the Hunting Kerr is based on the original Kerr in design.

The Black Watch tartan was well in use by that point in history, and in fact had developed about a hundred years prior.

Sadly, this is not the first instance of erroneous information about tartans being reproduced in clan newsletters and web sites. Just take what you read with a grain of salt. :-) (Including things I have written!)

[Four]

Sorry to say it, but that information quoted from your clan's newsletter is incorrect.

There are actually two Kerr tartans, not three. Those two are the Kerr tartan, and the Kerr Hunting tartan.

Either of these two tartans can be woven in a number of different color schemes, including ancient, modern, muted, and weathered/reproduction.

The tartan they refer to as the "ancient Kerr" is simply the Kerr tartan woven in the so-called ancient color scheme. They recognize this in their description of it, but it's not correct to treat it as a seperate and distinct tartan. The Hunting Kerr can also be woven in the ancient color scheme, after all.

Their history of the Kerr Hunting tartan, especially their suggestion that the Black Watch tartan was based upon it, is flat out wrong.

The original Kerr tartan (the red one) first appeared in 1842 in the Vestiarium Scoticum. (This was the first appearance for many of the lowland tartans). I'm not entirely certain when the Hunting Kerr was introduced, but it was sometime before 1950 and certainly after 1842, as the Hunting Kerr is based on the original Kerr in design.

The Black Watch tartan was well in use by that point in history, and in fact had developed about a hundred years prior.

Sadly, this is not the first instance of erroneous information about tartans being reproduced in clan newsletters and web sites. Just take what you read with a grain of salt. :-) (Including things I have written!)

That's fair, it seemed somewhat off to me.

This brings up a question for me though, what's defines a 'different' tartan, is a tartan only defined by the pattern not the color? It would imply such if a kerr modern and kerr ancient are the same tartan, just different shades.