my visit to Culloden.

[highland mafia]

Well I just spent most of my summer in Scotland! I haven't been over in over 10 years.. So It was fantastic to see so many cousins, aunts and uncles etc.. Most of my family lives in and around Inverness. Since my last visit though I have gotten quite interested in Scottish culture and history. And with the massive win for SNP this is indeed an amazing time in Scottish history! The amount of pride and nationalism people seem to share is just so infectious! One cant help to get caught up in it.. Whilst there however I made my first visit to Culloden. It was a moving experience. The museum is very nicely put together. The artifacts are just so amazing to look at.. I honestly could've spent a day in the museum alone.. But the battle feild its self is so humbling! The landscape and terrain was very solbering.. The challenges those poor Jacobites faced makes one realize how little options that must of had! the whole battle must have been like a moral suicide. What I really find interesting though is how reveered Prince Charlie is to the Scots.. Even today? The more I read and learn about the 45 rising the more he seems like a narcissistic royal twit!!!! I mean... Here's a very young man who beat the brits out of scotland with rag tag army. But agaisnt all advice from well respected military advisors to in fact strengthen his army in Scotland, he still advanced full tilt into England! And so began the end of the 45 rising! Ending of course in Culloden. Then quickly leading to quit simply the ethnic cleansing of the highlands.. Every moment of his front seems to punctuated by disastrous arrogance which ended with such far reaching effects! So... I`m I wrong in my view? Why is Prince Charlie still so reveered among the Scots? And why are his shortcomings disregarded among so many?

[creagdhubh]

Do you have any interesting photos you may want to share with the rabble, of your experiences and travels?

Cheers,

[Peter Crowe]

Well I just spent most of my summer in Scotland! I haven't been over in over 10 years.. So It was fantastic to see so many cousins, aunts and uncles etc.. Most of my family lives in and around Inverness. Since my last visit though I have gotten quite interested in Scottish culture and history. And with the massive win for SNP this is indeed an amazing time in Scottish history! The amount of pride and nationalism people seem to share is just so infectious! One cant help to get caught up in it.. Whilst there however I made my first visit to Culloden. It was a moving experience. The museum is very nicely put together. The artifacts are just so amazing to look at.. I honestly could've spent a day in the museum alone.. But the battle feild its self is so humbling! The landscape and terrain was very solbering.. The challenges those poor Jacobites faced makes one realize how little options that must of had! the whole battle must have been like a moral suicide. What I really find interesting though is how reveered Prince Charlie is to the Scots.. Even today? The more I read and learn about the 45 rising the more he seems like a narcissistic royal twit!!!! I mean... Here's a very young man who beat the brits out of scotland with rag tag army. But agaisnt all advice from well respected military advisors to in fact strengthen his army in Scotland, he still advanced full tilt into England! And so began the end of the 45 rising! Ending of course in Culloden. Then quickly leading to quit simply the ethnic cleansing of the highlands.. Every moment of his front seems to punctuated by disastrous arrogance which ended with such far reaching effects! So... I`m I wrong in my view? Why is Prince Charlie still so reveered among the Scots? And why are his shortcomings disregarded among so many?

You are right that Drummossie Moor (Culloden) is an evocative place, and represents the final death of the clan system (which was already under stress long before the 45). The tragedy was that Charles' best general, Lord George Murray knew that giving battle to Cumberland at Culloden was a recipe for defeat and was ignored.

However, as a Scot myself, I don't know many of my countrymen who revere Charles Edward Stuart (I know I certainly don't, and that's why I won't wear a white cockade in my bonnet). Even during the 45, it was a minority of the Highland Clans who 'came out for Tearlach'. If you allow for Scotland as a whole he had even less support. The evidence clearly shows Jacobitism had little or nothing to do with primordial Scottish Nationalism, Patriotism, Freedom, or Independence (despite the best attempts of Sir Walter Scott, the Romantic movement, and latterly Hollywood to portray otherwise).

'Bonnie Prince Charlie' was in reality an effete playboy who led a brave proud and loyal people to their ruin. If the 1745 rebellion had been successful it would have meant a return to Royal Absolutism, denial of Religious liberty, and arbitrary power by the House of Stuart who would never have been content with the throne of an independent Scotland minus the throne of England.

I don't doubt that much of what was done by Cumberland's men after the battle was a disgrace, as was the Act proscribing Highland Dress. However, i can't pretend to feeling any regret over the Act for the Abolition of Heritable Jurisdictions (1747) whereby feudal superiors (clan chiefs) had hitherto held the arbitrary power of life or death over their vassals (clansmen) without trial or anything approaching due process.

P.S. Believe me when I say I am sincerely glad you enjoyed your visit, and it is good to hear that people are confident about their future in these dire economic times.

[Phil]

Why is Prince Charlie still so reveered among the Scots? And why are his shortcomings disregarded among so many?

I take it that your relatives in and around Inverness gave you this impression that Prince Charlie is revered by Scots? I'm afraid, however, that like Gradatim Vincemus this is not a sentiment I share, nor do most of my acquaintances. Not that it has ever come up in discussion so I am making an assumption about this. The general view I would say is that Charlie was followed because many still gave allegiance to the House of Stuart as the rightful monarchs. Misguided this may have been but a fact nevertheless. As to Culloden, the only blame anyone Scottish would attribute here is to Cumberland for the disgraceful etnic cleansing pursued by his troops after the battle.

[Jock Scot]

G. V. and Phil I agree with your views. Living, as I do, slap bang in the area where it all started with reluctant enthusiasm in '45, BPC is hardly regarded with any enthusiasm by many here, these days. He and the whole sorry episode is studiously avoided in conversation by most in this area.

I have visited many battlefields in my time, even worked some fields with tractor and plough at Gommecourt on the Somme, but I have to confess that Culloden has an "atmosphere" that I feel on no other battlefield.
.

[English Bloke]

I'd love to see some pictures if you have any.

[kilted scholar]

I agree with Gradatim, Phil and Jock on their assessments of BPC and on the level of support he had. A few years back, at a historical exhibition relating to the uprising in the USA, I was astounded to see him described as King Charles Edward III.

Actually, I have never been to Culloden (which may reflect my lack of enthusiasm for BPC) but if it is anywhere near the standard of the Gettysburg Battlefield site (which in my personal experience of historical sites may have a few peers - the Cabinet War Rooms in London come to mind - but no superiors) it must be something quite out of the ordinary.

[AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH]

I concur with all the above Scots on the view of the prince. When standing on the moor I got a heavy sense of a tragedy,brought on I guess by my knowledge not only of what occured there,but the after math for highland society as it was then in general.

Of course we stand in the comfortable view of looking back on history,where it is easy to judge.The idealistic,and selfish young prince ignored the advice of those who knew better to go home after he had first landed.The ones that rose with him did so out of mixed loyalty and the hoped for rewards that would have come had the stuarts been restored to the throne.Either way they took a gamble that took courage,for which they paid a terrible price.

To think of the poor crofters who were forced 'out' by point of dirk or pistol by their chiefs,even after they had slipped away from the highland army to take care of desperately needed farming tasks for thier families,and ordered back to be left in the sleat on the moor,starving,raked by grapeshot whilst the glorious bonnie prince charlie dithered ,is tragic.

Who knows how history would have gone if he had not landed,but when he did the die was caste and if he is revered at all by some then I feel a special set of equipment known as rose tinted glasses may be the cause.

Rose tinted glasses can see him as the phocal point for a time when the highlands still seemed to have an independance of action,a sort of world unto thier own.In actuality,the demands he made on his brave,loyal and outnumbered supporters just brought disaster apon them.

It's funny Jock,but what you said about discussions about that fatefull day
seeming to be avoided is what I have felt with my relatives.Sitting in my cousins farm kitchen by the fire in Angus once,he mentioned that some of our folk had "gane across tae that",and a definate feeling,like talking of something dreaded,settled on us for a few moments.You don't sit blethering about it like the local football scores,in any case.

[Mike M.]

Hmmm...

I've been studying the '45 campaign myself, and tend toward a middle view. Prince Charles Edward was brave and hardy, but not a good strategist. The biggest mistakes the Jacobites made were in not having a solid strategy to win, and in grossly inadequate intelligence preparation.

For a rising to work, the Hanoverian dynasty would have to be undermined politically, then attacked militarily. This was not done, and it was clear that the Jacobites had badly overestimated their support south of the border. And any foreign intervention needed to be kept offshore. Landing a French army to help would not win the Stuarts friends.

It's rather like the Charge of the Light Brigade. Glorious, romantic, and most unwise.

[PEEDYC]

A couple of sites to give you a view :-

http://www.nts.org.uk/Culloden/PPF/TheBattle/
http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.u...den/index.html