Question for Americans please (re Scottish-American regiments??)

[Silk]

Hi, I would just like to ask for some feedback on this from Americans reading (or anyone else who might have experience to answer.)

I am in Canada and I know we have a Scottish military tradition in the forces in Canada. But when I try to find similar in the U.S. it always comes up pretty sparse although I did find something about a regiment that was in the Union Army briefly during the U.S. Civil war but it seemed to have a very brief life.

Is there not too much of a Scottish tradition in the American military? I'm just curious since I have seen some American pipe bands on Youtube (I think they've usually been police bands I've seen) and I know there's quite a few Americans of Scottish heritage so I assumed there'd be a Scottish military tradition there too. I'd love to read some feedback on this question since I'm not finding very much online.

Thanks,

Silk

[KD Burke]

Of course, there are any number of distinguished soldiers, sailors and marines of Scottish heritage in history; however in my opinion, there is no specific, overt Scottish influence in the US military.

i think there was a desire, after the revolution, to avoid the trappings of the British monarchy.

[EagleJCS]

Broad, sweeping generalizations follow, please do not flame for imprecision.

I'm no expert on US military traditions, but it seems to me (as an average observer), that the Scottish regimental tradition in Canada is an outgrowth from/extention of the British military and the Scottish regiments there. The US military essentially broke off from the British military and started estabilishing its own traditions in the late 1700's, well before pipe bands as we now know them were developed. If I recall correctly, there were only a handful of Scottish regiments, much less Highland Scottish regiments, in the British military at that time, and they probably didn't have much of an influence on the largely English and Dutch/German immigrant population of most of the Colonies.

That there are police (and other service organization) pipe bands in the US is probably due to the preponderance of Scottish and Irish immigrants who filled those ranks as those organizations developed (probably many of them ex-military). They brought with them the piping/drumming traditions from home, and eventually those traditions took hold in an official capacity, particularly in the US NorthEast (Boston, New York, etc.).

[TheOfficialBren]

DISCLAIMER: I am from Southern California where any and all Celtic or British influenced is at the absolute bare minimum. My opinions are based upon my own life experience. YMMV. No offence intended, also. Just some insight.

Regarding the US military, during the Revolution the Founders were hopped up and angry with Britain to the point that many aspects of early American culture (including our Armed Forces) were modelled after the French, for example, we say "LOOtenant" instead of "LEFtenant." The only kilted regiment in US history was the 79th New York Volunteers during the US Civil War period, though they didn't go into battle kilted to the best of my knowledge and within just a few years abandoned Highland dress altogether.

To be honest, in the US, Scottish culture as a whole is usually mashed together with Irish culture, quite sadly, I might add. Kilts are nearly overwhelmingly associated with IRISH-Americans (as inaccurate as that is). Whilest kilted I am more often asked if I'm Irish than Scottish (it always throws me for a loop, too). Where I live kilt-wearing is an oddity at best.

There are a few pipe bands but aside from a few parades they are rarely seen out playing. Those are pretty much the only time kilts are seen in the wild here.

In a nutshell, many of the Scottish diaspora in the US left everything about Scotland behind when they came here in order to assimilate--perhaps overcompensating and becoming more American than the Americans who were native-born at the time. This attitude is something that is changing today as people are beginning to rediscover and/or embrace their individual cultural heritages. Not an opinion. It's a fact. People have much different attitudes about ethnicity and identity than they did even a decade or two ago, muchless a century ago. FACT to support this assertion: there are more American kilt-wearers now than during any other period in American history.

Note: there was no intention to violate any rules there or make any inflammatory statements. I am simply providing some insight behind why there is a lack of Scottish influence in our martial tradition which, in turn, reflects our national tradition.

[MacGumerait]

Is there not too much of a Scottish tradition in the American military?
Silk

Actually there is a Scottish influence and tradition in most branches of the US Military . There is nothing like the Canadian Black Watch Regiment as we are not part of the Commonwealth of Great Britain .

However , most branches of the US Military ( perhaps all ) have their own tartan and have their own pipe band . Also , most US Military Academies have their own tartan and pipe band .

The Scottish influence and traditions are not lost regarding the US Military , you just won't see a regiment called The US Black Watch Regiment or anything similar .

Cheers , Mike

[tripleblessed]

The Scottish military tradition that persists in the US is that we enlist when needed,and throw everything we have at the job at
hand, and attempt to get back home to loved ones in some semblance of sanity. AND we offer frequent prayers for peace.

On the subject of ethnicity in the colonies, there was a substantial Scottish presence in the South. Highland Scots tended to be
Loyalist, but some looked for a change. Probably the greatest single Scottish military influence in the South was Lt. Col.
Archibald Campbell, whose style of campaigning so outraged the colonists in Georgia, mostly Loyalist or neutral to that point,
that they joined or formed militias to fight for independence. This shortly led to the battle at Kettle Creek, which broke Crown
dominance in Georgia, and many of those same men fought at Cowpens and Kings Mountain.

[OC Richard]

There has only been one regiment which has issued kilts as part of its official uniform, the 79th New York State Militia.

It was raised in 1858 from among Scottish immigrants living in New York.

The four original companies had two uniforms: a Full Dress uniform with kilt and Glengarry, and a Service Dress uniform with tartan trousers and kepi. Both uniforms used the same jacket. Here they are



When the war started in 1861 the regiment raised additional companies to bring it up to full strength, so as to enter service. These new companies were never issued Full Dress. The entire regiment, in Service Dress, marched off to war leaving the kilts in storage; in other words, the old Full Dress kilt uniform was not worn on active service.

Numerous photos and paintings of 79th New York members as prisoners and in hospital show the Service Dress uniform quite clearly: kepi, Full Dress tunic (sans the fringed epaulettes), and tartan trousers.

By mid-war these things had worn out and the unit was wearing ordinary Union dress.

The regiment continued after the war. The postwar Full Dress was rather different from the prewar 1858-1861 Full Dress.

Here is yours truly wearing a reproduction of the prewar Full Dress. Note the unique two-row dicing on the Glengarry

[Silk]

Very interesting opinions and facts on this question and I love that pic OC. I believe that is the one regiment I was reading about (found a brief history of them on Wikipedia.) I am frequently spending my time looking at very old pics of the regiments here as well. In fact I found one dated 1868 just yesterday that was quite the sight to behold but it's Canada so I won't post on this thread.

I found a site yesterday that is apparently for a society that commemorates both Scottish and American military traditions? I was a little confused to be honest when I looked at it. I'm not quite sure what they were about exactly but I spent a bit of time looking at their online publication and there was a mention of Kings Mountain there Tripleblessed but it confused me some because the narrative seemed to indicate that the highlanders there were fighting with the Americans and yet for information on them, it directs the reader to go to Loyalist sites and indeed links over to a page for Loyalist genealogy, etc. So I wasn't really sure what that was about...

As for kilts being associated with the Irish in the States, first time I've ever heard that! But I will say that I have a LOT of American friends online and although I have heard many a reference to those of Irish descent in the States, both from my friends and even on tv, etc., I just never seem to hear anything about those of Scottish descent which surprises me as I know that there is a lot of Scottish bloodline in the U.S. too. The only way I've ever been able to explain it to myself is that I had read a long time ago that in the immigration waves to the New World, that Canada received a larger portion of Scottish immigrants as compared to Irish and that the opposite was true in the States. I know this is true of Canada from having looked at the demographics stats (in earlier days, the Scots were the 3rd largest ethnic group in Canada and Gaelic the 3rd most spoken language) but I don't think I've seen anything to prove or disprove this in the States at this point (I suppose I could do the research to find out.) Anyways, I don't want to take the thread off-topic too much but that was a very interesting topic to think about. ;)

So the highland regiment which came about during the U.S. Civil War would seem to indicate that the idea of a connection to the U.K. wasn't perhaps the reason for highland regiments not being raised, at least not in the later times after the revolution was long past. But it seemed to indicate on Wikipedia that there was a priority of keeping all American units identical in dress, etc.

Silk

[TheOfficialBren]

That's about right, Silk. More Irish came to America and more Scots went to Canada. Kind of funny that it ended up that way considering the geographic relationship (north-south diagonally) between the two countries (Ireland and Scotland).

Also, I agree that it was for the purpose of having the entire Army look uniform. Personally, I prefer that unique units have items that immediately distinguish them from the run-of-the-mill unit but I don't make that decision and in all honesty the gentleman has been forcibly removed from the battlefield in modern warfare (let's leave that right there, though, before we tread on Rule 11).

Also, I will place emphasis on the fact that the US military was heavily influenced by the French (NOT the British) from the Revolution onward. General LaFayette (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert...s_de_Lafayette) was largely responsible for this. The Continental Army was made up of a few Seven Years War (French and Indian War) veterans but mostly young, raw recruits who desperately needed training and arms(some were hidden from the British but many armaments were provided by France). Obviously the British were not going to train the enemy so the colonists turned to France, following Sun Tzu's addage, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."
The Marquis de LaFayette was the ranking officer among several capable officers who came to America and got the colonists into shape. He was wounded at the Battle of Brandywine. He was also in defiance of his king, Louis XVI, for coming to America. He returned to France in 1779 to face the music and spent some time under house arrest. He returned to America in 1780 and remained for the duration of the war. LaFayette was a close friend of George Washington (apparently no small feat considering Washington's distant personality--truly a man who could have been king had he desired it). LaFayette named his son after Washington.

John Paul Jones, the Father of the American Navy, was a Scot. I don't know much about him off the top of my head, though.

There really hasn't been much influence by the Scots on the American military. It might also be a stretch to say that the influence has especially broad on American society as a whole. Yes there was some influence but that influence is (even I cringe to say it) sometimes balooned and romanticised. The fact is that when people were first coming to America they were intent upon assimilating. Let us also not forget that there was a lot of Gaelophobia during the 19th century (Irish were treated like second-class citizens). Scots would not have spoken Gaelic in public and even worked at concealing anything overtly "Gaelic" in order to fit in. This is probably a major contributing factor to the modern confusion among the majority of Americans in descerning the differences between Scotland and Ireland and their respective cultures and peoples...hence the Scotireland trope.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Scotireland

Sorry to drag this out so long but this truly is not an easy subject to condense and is only recently being examined by American scholars. It is quite difficult to answer your original question and the 'whys' surrounding it without going in-depth.

I have a feeling that this thread is going to be a legendary one.

[Silk]

Actually thank you for that explanation, that touched on some things I was aware of and several that I wasn't! ;) lol I was aware of the connection with France during the Revolution, not so much aware of it's continued influence afterwards, that's interesting. I would wonder how much of this is common knowledge? I mean is that a subject that is discussed at all in American schools for instance?

I know the Irish had a rough time in the U.S. in the old days, I had not ever thought of that possibly affecting the Scottish to be honest. This actually makes me wonder now what kind of time the Irish and Scots had to go through in Canada/British North America too. Mind you, the fact that Gaelic was the 3rd most spoken language in early Canada would seem to indicate that they must have felt at least somewhat comfortable in speaking it I would think, at least at one time. Our very first prime minister was in fact a Scot and apparently Gaelic was his mother tongue (just read that latter fact last night! lol)

I had never heard about the mix-up/mishmash of Irish and Scottish cultures in the States (perception-wise at least) but now that I think about it, I can remember there being some general confusion when talking with Americans I knew such as I would be talking about something to do with the Scots/Canadian Scots and they would respond with comments about the Irish. I always found it a bit strange (because to me they are a completely separate culture even if there are some things in common) but just didn't think too much about it.

Silk

P.S. I do agree that identical uniforms throughout the forces makes tidy good sense but I'd just be heartbroken if we hadn't had our highland regiments here! I just LOVE them! ;)

P.P.S. I really like the pic of the American one here from the Civil War too... the fellow on the left looks particularly awesome in the pic. ;) lol