Irish kilt books

[kiltbook]

I would like to know if there are any books written about the traditional plain or solid Irish kilt. I have the following books in my collection but none of them explain Irish dress:

1. The Kilt: A Manual of Scottish National Dress by Louden MacQueen Douglas ( I downloaded this one from the forum)

2. Tartans and Highland Dress by C.R. MacKinnon of Dunakin

3. So You're Going to Wear the Kilt by J. Charles Thompson

I would like to read about the history of the plain Irish kilt and the accoutrements worn with these garments. I hope that a member of this forum will be able to recommend a book that can help me. Thank you for your assistance.

http://photobucket.com/Irishkilts

[Paul Henry]

The problem you will have is that the kilt isn't really Irish, it wasn't worn in Ireland in any real way until the end of the 19th century.Saffron as a colour was always associated with Irish dress and so when there was a suggestion of a national dress the idea of a kilt was brought up in plain colour saffron wool, or indeed even dark green, but there was nothing historical about kilt wearing in Ireland
Today there are several ranges of Irish tartans, but most of them were only designed in the 1970's ( perhaps even 80's)

[M. A. C. Newsome]

You might benefit from reading Old Irish & Highland Dress by H. F. McClintock, as an excellent reference for historical Irish clothing. He does go into a bit of the nineteenth century and early twentieth century use of the Highland kilt by Irish nationalists, and does a good job showing that it is without historical basis.

You might also take a look at the article I co-authored with Todd Wilkinson on Irish kilts and tartans.
http://scottishtartans.org/irish_kilts.htm

[MacSpadger]

Excellent article Matt, very well researched.

The Early History of the Kilt page is excellent too, but just one thing, if you don't mind.
With John Derrik's 1581 book The Image of Irelande, the illustrations were not made by Derrick, who was a customs official, but from the workshop of the engraver John Daye in London. Derrik did write the incredibly sycophantic poem praising Sir Henry Sidney, (which is what The Image of Irelande is), then commisioned Daye to illustrate and print the book at Derrik's expense. Daye never visited Ireland. They were not made by an eyewitness, and cannot be relied upon. The engravings were made by John Daye, some of his sons and immigrant Dutch engravers who Daye preferred to employ as they were of the same religious branch as Mr Daye himself. The number of different styles in the book, as well as the number of different artist's initials on the plates show a diverse group of engravers working on one project.
When the Black Raven PB formed in 1910 they wore a uniform partly based on an illustration from The Image of Irelande, based on the incorrect assumption that Derrik made the illustrations, therefore by an eyewitness. We can't know how accurate the illustrations are, although the drawings of Sir Henry Sidney's forces are remarkably correct in their detail. Daye would have been familiar with English troops from seeing them in London, but it's not known exactly what he used as the source for his Irish costume illustrations.

[O'Callaghan]

It would be reasonable for someone writing in the 19th century to have concluded that Irish kilts were a new thing and not historical. Newsflash, it's the 21st century, now folks! Treating something that originated in the 19th century as not historical is like treating Queen Victoria as if she were still on the throne. Perhaps some people think she is, LOL! Better cover the table legs, lest they should inflame your passions.

[opositive]

give full credit to the scots for inventing and keeping alive the kilt, despite efforts by the [edit -- folks who sought to anglicanize]. but at what point does something evolve from an affectation to become a "tradition?" the "french" poodle is a german bird retrieving breed--just like a lab. i am just glad the irish nationalists went with kilts rather than pajama bottoms, daisy duke shorts, or droopy pants--st patrick's day parades (another american affection--or is it a tradition yet?) would be quite awful.

[edit--no, i do not mean to turn the thread nasty or insult the british. many other threads have thoroughly established the long historical and cultural roots of the kilt as a scottish creation and icon. as mr newsome below points out, a small group of irish nationalists adopted the kilt relatively recently, and the kilt has never really caught on there. in america, or at least in the new orleans area where i grew up, the kilt is associated with both ireland and scotland, regardless of the lack of long historical roots for the former. quite frankly, if i had never stumbled upon this board last year, i never would have known the difference. my point remains when does something become "traditional?" -- but i should have included "to whom" since the answer will change based on geography, cultural group and time period].

[MacSpadger]

It would be reasonable for someone writing in the 19th century to have concluded that Irish kilts were a new thing and not historical.

I really don't know what you mean here, but if you are referring to Matt's refererence to Old Irish & Highland Dress by H. F. McClintock, (which is the only reference to writing on historical Irish clothing that I can see in this thread), that was published in 1943, not the 19th century.

give full credit to the scots for inventing and keeping alive the kilt, despite efforts by the brits.

Erm.....Scots are Brits.
(At least from 1707 to the moment, anyway).

[Chas]

Erm.....Scots are Brits.

Thanks, MacSpadger. Stuff like this really annoys me. It is as if the only way people can prove their Scottishness is to insult the English.

Regards

Chas

[gary meakin]

I think his thread is taking a wrong turn.
This seems like a good answer to the original question.

You might benefit from reading Old Irish & Highland Dress by H. F. McClintock, as an excellent reference for historical Irish clothing. He does go into a bit of the nineteenth century and early twentieth century use of the Highland kilt by Irish nationalists, and does a good job showing that it is without historical basis.

You might also take a look at the article I co-authored with Todd Wilkinson on Irish kilts and tartans.
http://scottishtartans.org/irish_kilts.htm

[M. A. C. Newsome]

It would be reasonable for someone writing in the 19th century to have concluded that Irish kilts were a new thing and not historical. Newsflash, it's the 21st century, now folks! Treating something that originated in the 19th century as not historical is like treating Queen Victoria as if she were still on the throne. Perhaps some people think she is, LOL! Better cover the table legs, lest they should inflame your passions.

When folks like me say there is no "historical" evidence for "Irish kilts" what we mean is that there is no reason in the historical record to believe that the kilt ever formed part of the native Irish dress. Kilts were not part of Irish fashion. They were never worn by any significant number of Irish men. For a time they were worn by a relatively small sub-set of Irish nationalists in an attempt to define a "national costume" but this was not entirely successful, as the article shows.