Tartan for Me, Reliability?

[McElmurry]

At the games this weekend in Woodland, CA I discovered that “Tartan for Me” lists McElmurry connected to Clan Murray. I had pretty much concluded McElmurry was related to the Gaelic for Son of the Servant of Mary; either of the Lewis or Harris families or from the O’Morna of Ulster. Now I am less certain of my conclusion. How reliable is Tartan for Me?

[mookien]

I suggest you send an email to the Scottish Tartans Authority (STA) at

admin@tartansauthority.com

and ask them about a McElmurry tartan. The author of "Tartan for Me!" (Dr. Philip Smith) is a past President of the American Branch of the STA. They may know, and if not, they might forward your query to Dr. Smith.

[thescot]

Tartan for Me is probably about as accurate as anything else. The fact is that without birth records, it's almost impossible to know for sure what actual connections exist. Choosing a clan based solely on a "sept" interpretation is iffy at best. And i think most of the lists are based on Black's Surnames of Scotland.

I don't know what you based your own conclusions on, but they're probably as acurate as anything else.

[Nick the DSM]

I've heard McElmurray as a name under Clan Morrison, son of the servant of Mary.

[McElmurry]

I don't know what you based your own conclusions on, but they're probably as acurate as anything else.

My conclusion is based on a preponderance of evidence as I have come to a dead end at John McElmurry, Senior in Southern Illinois prior to the Revolution (Illinois was a French colony at the time).

By Ulster Irish tradition Mac Giolla Mhuire is of the race O’Morna and is referenced as early as 1276. Over time the name was anglicized to various degrees as McGilmurry, McElmurry and Gilmore, to name a few. The name appears in several Irish books of surnames including those by John O’Hart, Edward MacLysaght, Capt. Patrick Kelly, and Patrick Woulfe. Several interesting tales of these folks can be found on the internet two of which involve burning churches in Derry and Carrickfergus.

However, my Grandfather described the family as Scots-Irish and by the time they arrived in Arkansas they were Methodist. John Senior was noted for his red hair but both he and his son married Native Americans which I presume would suppress that characteristic although the women could have been part French or Scot for that matter. The red hair returned in my grandfather whose mother was a McCollum.

My best hypothesis for the origin of the Scots-Irish moniker is they migrated from County Down to the west coast of Scotland and then back to Ulster before coming to the colonies. The Morrison DNA project has placed Gilmures (subgroup N1 which include McElmurry) on the west coast of Scotland in Renfrewshire. Another interesting genetic tidbit is Duane McElmurry, author of The McElmurry Genealogy, suffered from Dupuytren’s contracture.

My understanding is the Morrison Clan is a kind of a big tent which includes the entire name Morrison regardless of origin (per the Lord Lyon). McElmurry may not be directly related to the Lewis or Harris Sons of the Servants of Mary but would be included based on a similar origin of the name and may in fact share some genetic similarities (particularly Norse influence) with their cousins (?) from the Outer Hebrides.

So I had pretty much decided Morrison was the best fit until I found this reference to Murray.

I've heard McElmurray as a name under Clan Morrison, son of the servant of Mary.

Thanks for the information. Things can get a little muddled by the time they reach the west coast and it is nice to get an east coast perspective.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

The problem with Tartan For Me! is that people tend to use it without reading the rather hefty introductory material, which includes specific disclaimers about what the book is and is not. It is not a "clan sept list." The author recommends tartans for names, which is something different than saying a name is part of a clan.

The other problem is that there is no supporting documentation to say why a particular tartan was recommended.

So I would caution people to do further research to see if the connection can be supported. Otherwise, treat it simply as one man's opinion. It's a good place to start, but it shouldn't be the only resource you use.

[McElmurry]

I suggest you send an email to the Scottish Tartans Authority (STA) at

admin@tartansauthority.com

and ask them about a McElmurry tartan. The author of "Tartan for Me!" (Dr. Philip Smith) is a past President of the American Branch of the STA. They may know, and if not, they might forward your query to Dr. Smith.

Thanks for the great idea.

The problem with Tartan For Me! is that people tend to use it without reading the rather hefty introductory material, which includes specific disclaimers about what the book is and is not. It is not a "clan sept list." The author recommends tartans for names, which is something different than saying a name is part of a clan.

The other problem is that there is no supporting documentation to say why a particular tartan was recommended.

So I would caution people to do further research to see if the connection can be supported. Otherwise, treat it simply as one man's opinion. It's a good place to start, but it shouldn't be the only resource you use.

Thanks for the insight. I just want to assign an appropriate weight to each bit of evidence I collect and your admonition to read the introduction is well taken.

[Nick the DSM]

My conclusion is based on a preponderance of evidence as I have come to a dead end at John McElmurry, Senior in Southern Illinois prior to the Revolution (Illinois was a French colony at the time).

By Ulster Irish tradition Mac Giolla Mhuire is of the race O’Morna and is referenced as early as 1276. Over time the name was anglicized to various degrees as McGilmurry, McElmurry and Gilmore, to name a few. The name appears in several Irish books of surnames including those by John O’Hart, Edward MacLysaght, Capt. Patrick Kelly, and Patrick Woulfe. Several interesting tales of these folks can be found on the internet two of which involve burning churches in Derry and Carrickfergus.

However, my Grandfather described the family as Scots-Irish and by the time they arrived in Arkansas they were Methodist. John Senior was noted for his red hair but both he and his son married Native Americans which I presume would suppress that characteristic although the women could have been part French or Scot for that matter. The red hair returned in my grandfather whose mother was a McCollum.

My best hypothesis for the origin of the Scots-Irish moniker is they migrated from County Down to the west coast of Scotland and then back to Ulster before coming to the colonies. The Morrison DNA project has placed Gilmures (subgroup N1 which include McElmurry) on the west coast of Scotland in Renfrewshire. Another interesting genetic tidbit is Duane McElmurry, author of The McElmurry Genealogy, suffered from Dupuytren’s contracture.

My understanding is the Morrison Clan is a kind of a big tent which includes the entire name Morrison regardless of origin (per the Lord Lyon). McElmurry may not be directly related to the Lewis or Harris Sons of the Servants of Mary but would be included based on a similar origin of the name and may in fact share some genetic similarities (particularly Norse influence) with their cousins (?) from the Outer Hebrides.

So I had pretty much decided Morrison was the best fit until I found this reference to Murray.



Thanks for the information. Things can get a little muddled by the time they reach the west coast and it is nice to get an east coast perspective.

I'd try the DNA test on yourself, you may find even more detail results of your family.

I honestly think you'd probably have a closer match to Morrison either the Scots or Irish clan than the Murray, just a guess.

[MacBean]

[QUOTE=McElmurry;979350]My conclusion is based on a preponderance of evidence as I have come to a dead end at John McElmurry, Senior in Southern Illinois prior to the Revolution (Illinois was a French colony at the time).QUOTE]

Now that's interesting! I bet you wish you could talk to him and hear his story!

[macwilkin]

[QUOTE=MacBean;979602]

My conclusion is based on a preponderance of evidence as I have come to a dead end at John McElmurry, Senior in Southern Illinois prior to the Revolution (Illinois was a French colony at the time).QUOTE]

Now that's interesting! I bet you wish you could talk to him and hear his story!

A detachment of soldiers from the Black Watch was sent to Ft. de Chartres in the Illinois Country after the French and Indian War:

http://www.42ndrhr.org/chartres.php

Illinois was actually in British control following 1763; the Western side of the Mississippi was turned over to Spain and became Spanish Upper Louisiana until the early 19th century. It should be noted that a majority of residents of the Illinois Country were of French heritage, regardless of who was in charge of the territory.

The British eventually were forces from the Illinois Country by George Rogers Clark during the Western campaigns of the Revolution.