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Originally Posted by Nathan
It's always possible, but given the vintage and how it was treated as a precious family heirloom, I think it's worth digging a little more to make sure.
People treat items with reverence for many reasons, designated tartan being one of the least employed I should think. The memory alone of who the donor was might be enough. Perhaps the skirt was even made by a loved one.
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Originally Posted by Phil
Like Jock I can only ever recall ladies wearing grouse claws as described as a brooch. I am not sure that I ever saw one worn as a kilt pin and have my doubts that something so typically feminine would have been. Perhaps attitudes are different elsewhere.
Although not being able to speak to traditional Highland attitudes, I can say that hereabouts having a dried grouse, pheasant, duck, chicken, or any other foot attached to your clothes would certainly not be something thought to be feminine at all. I live in a very diverse country, so there may be regional and/or cultural exceptions, but generally speaking, animal parts (apart from fur coats) tend to be the domain of men.
Not to derail too much, but where did the grouse foot as jewelry trend begin ?
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Originally Posted by MacMillans son
Although not being able to speak to traditional Highland attitudes, I can say that hereabouts having a dried grouse, pheasant, duck, chicken, or any other foot attached to your clothes would certainly not be something thought to be feminine at all. I live in a very diverse country, so there may be regional and/or cultural exceptions, but generally speaking, animal parts (apart from fur coats) tend to be the domain of men.
Not to derail too much, but where did the grouse foot as jewelry trend begin ?
I actually first remember grouse claw brooches in touristy shops in Ireland back in the 1950's. Yes tourist tat was available even then. But they were always sold as ladies brooches, pinned on cards, and displayed next to other similar tat such as Connemara marble jewellery, shamrock and shillelaghs. But in those days the only kilt pins I can remember were of the large nappy (diaper for the sake of our transatlantic friends) pin variety. All the current Braveheart style swords etc were still to be invented.
I should add that there was no similar market for ladies fashion in the body parts of other animals apart from, perhaps, fox fur stoles and other furry creations. It was obviously never a fashion in your part of the world, hence the misguided perception that such brooches were a part of kilted fashion at any time. There is, of course, no reason whatsoever why anyone should not choose a grouse claw brooch or, indeed, any other type of ladies' jewellery to wear with their kilt. That is provided they realise that such an adornment has never been a feature of kilt-wearing in Scotland and they do so accordingly.
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Does the kilt/ skirt have any tags, like who made it etc..? Just thinking that you might be able to find out more about it by tracing who made it? I'm real new to learning about kilts, and clothing I suppose, so I might be way off in thinking this... Guess its already established that this is a fashion tartan, but knowing who made it might help in learning how old it is and perhaps where it was made..?
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When I began piping at the end of the 1950s in Ontario, Canada, grouse claw kilt pins were sold as kilt pins by several vendors at highland games, including Hugh MacPherson of Edinburgh, who also had a shop and a mail-order business in St. Catherines, Ontario and was, in fact, the main retailer of highland wear, bagpipes, etc. in Ontario in the 1950s. These kilt pins were fairly common at the time in Ontario. I had one myself, but lost it sometime in the 1960s. I hadn't seen one for many years until recently when one of our lady pipers began wearing a vintage grouse claw kilt pin she had just inherited.
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From what I can see of the waistband I'm guessing its a skirt and a fashion tartan.
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Originally Posted by Riverkilt
From what I can see of the waistband I'm guessing its a skirt and a fashion tartan.
It is certainly a ladies skirt but it's very, very old. Like it said it was my 30 y.o. friend's great, great, grandmother's who lived her whole life in Scotland. It wasn't passed down as just clothing but rather as the matriach's "kilt". It could be a fashion tartan, but it's interesting the amount of reverence that was accorded to what seems to have been just a simple woolen garment...
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It is certainly a ladies skirt but it's very, very old. Like it said it was my 30 y.o. friend's great, great, grandmother's who lived her whole life in Scotland. It wasn't passed down as just clothing but rather as the matriach's "kilt". It could be a fashion tartan, but it's interesting the amount of reverence that was accorded to what seems to have been just a simple woolen garment...
Items that have a high emotional value are not always very expensive, well made or with great historical meaning.
My wife has a long tartan skirt, in Royal Stewart, not particularly well made and the cloth isn't particularly fine; but she values it extremely highly because it was her mum's school choir uniform, it no longer fits her mum and she is the only daughter, her family love nothing more than a sing-song and so it seems that my wife is the natural custodian of it notwithstanding that most would overlook it if they came across it in a charity shop. The item I would bemoan losing the most is a small two blade Swiss Army Knife originally owned by my Grandfather. I'm not Swiss and neither was my father, mother, grandfather, grantmother, greatgrandfather, greatgrandmother etc and so forth; you can buy one for very little in virtually every village in the UK.... despite all this it is just an item I particularly identify with him and because it was his is I value it for that reason.
Items can acquire an "emotional" value for reasons that seem very silly to many outside of a particular family but are still accorded a value that is high above their actual worth. All part of the human condition.
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Originally Posted by Lime
Items that have a high emotional value are not always very expensive, well made or with great historical meaning.
My wife has a long tartan skirt, in Royal Stewart, not particularly well made and the cloth isn't particularly fine; but she values it extremely highly because it was her mum's school choir uniform, it no longer fits her mum and she is the only daughter, her family love nothing more than a sing-song and so it seems that my wife is the natural custodian of it notwithstanding that most would overlook it if they came across it in a charity shop. The item I would bemoan losing the most is a small two blade Swiss Army Knife originally owned by my Grandfather. I'm not Swiss and neither was my father, mother, grandfather, grantmother, greatgrandfather, greatgrandmother etc and so forth; you can buy one for very little in virtually every village in the UK.... despite all this it is just an item I particularly identify with him and because it was his is I value it for that reason.
Items can acquire an "emotional" value for reasons that seem very silly to many outside of a particular family but are still accorded a value that is high above their actual worth. All part of the human condition.
True, I just find it interesting that a native-born Scot would attach such a traditional kilt pin to a fashion tartan and pass it down through her family, but hey, anything is possible.
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Originally Posted by Nathan
True, I just find it interesting that a native-born Scot would attach such a traditional kilt pin to a fashion tartan and pass it down through her family, but hey, anything is possible.
Traditional kilt pin? Well I suppose it depends on one's viewpoint, but I am not sure that many in Scotland would view them as traditional kilt pins. Sorry
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