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Re-enactment / historical question
It seems that I will be attending one of the many re-enactments that go on over the Summer months in Britain, I am not sure which one it will be as yet, but I do know that it will be either 14 or 15 century since the lady that invited me belongs to both those groups.
X Marks does seem to have quite a number of members that go to re-enactments or the American equivalent and it is to them that I am addressing this question.
I can put together a Great Kilt from one of the double-wide cloths I have for making "modern" kilts with a suitable belt, the cloth is a modern tartan, Austin Ancient to be exact, which is the wrong century by quite a margin, but I already have it, so I will use it anyway, but the question of what else I should wear with it springs to mind.
Browsing around the Internet does give a huge variety of pictures and advice but to be honest, most of the photos show what I would call a relatively modern version of what to wear with a Great Kilt.
Now, I do not want to spend any more money than I need to on this, preferably none at all if I can manage it, especially since I do not know, as yet, whether or not I will go to any more re-enactments. So my question is, after all this rambling pre-amble, what would be good to wear to show that I am trying to fit in, but not totally authentic, which I cannot afford at present.
I wear a kilt everyday, so I have the normal things like sgian dubh, hose, leather sporran, leather shoes and any number of shirts including a jacobian style shirt and a great Heritage Shirt from Kevin at Empire Canvas Works and I am a pretty fair tailor and knitter if things need to be made.
So, your suggestions and advice would be appreciated especially since the most likely event is at the end of August.
Mark
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If the reenactment is 14th or 15th century, then the great kilt itself (or feilidh-mor) is incorrect. The earliest documented evidence for that garment is c. 1594, and you would need to look for sources c. 1300-1500 to fit your time period.
Here is one source where you can purchase clothing from that era.
http://historicenterprises.com/
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I could not see anything scottish on that site and I doubt very much if the scots of the time would wear dublet and hose. However, your point is taken about the earliest known great kilt.
Still, just because the earliest known date is circa 1594 do not mean to say that something like that was not worn, just that there is no record of it.
So, the question then becomes, what did the scots wear in this time period?
Also I should reiterate my budgetary requirements for little or no cost.
Mark
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I guess we would need a little more information. When you say re-enactment, do you mean these are people you are trying to acurately portray a certain time period in Scotland? Such as those who recreate Culloden and other battles. Or do they just like to dress up in period dress and eat smoked turkey legs? We have both over here. The first kind are very serious about getting everything correct and spend extreme amounts of time and money getting their persona correct. The other kind are usually part of the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism) group. These usually host the Ren-Faires where there is a broad range of period dress. While there are some in the SCA who are very serious about their persona, not everyone there takes historical accuracy in consideration. For them its all about having a good time.
So what did Scots in that time period wear? Well, it would depend on what part of Scotland they lived and what their social status was. I would imagine that the lowland Scots would have worn what the rest of Europe was wearing as the fasion of the day since that part of Scotland was accessible to the rest of Europe. So it could have been those doublets and hose. Especially for the well-to-do.
I would ask your friend as she would probably be the best source of how other men there will be dressed. She might even be able to scrounge somehting up for you. Sometimes these people have extra bits that they've put asside as they improved their look. I guess the important part is to have fun.
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I couldn't imagine dressing as a 17th century peasant being more expensive than dressing as a 21st century college student.
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Originally Posted by george7
I couldn't imagine dressing as a 17th century peasant being more expensive than dressing as a 21st century college student.
You'd be surprised. Historically accurate period reproductions of clothing and kit can be quite expensive. Just ask any of the gents here who do Revy. War impressions. :cool:
Todd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeathBar
I guess we would need a little more information. When you say re-enactment, do you mean these are people you are trying to acurately portray a certain time period in Scotland? Such as those who recreate Culloden and other battles. Or do they just like to dress up in period dress and eat smoked turkey legs? We have both over here. The first kind are very serious about getting everything correct and spend extreme amounts of time and money getting their persona correct. The other kind are usually part of the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism) group. These usually host the Ren-Faires where there is a broad range of period dress. While there are some in the SCA who are very serious about their persona, not everyone there takes historical accuracy in consideration. For them its all about having a good time.
Judging by the stories I have been told by the lady in question these re-enactment are trying to accurately portray various battles such as the Battle of Tewskbury last weekend. These re-enactments go on all over the country including a trip to France the weekend after next to re-enact Versailles. My thought is to go as an itinerant scot, if there is such a thing, but my main thought is not to embarrass the lady by my ignorance, hence the question.
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Now, I do not want to spend any more money than I need to on this, preferably none at all if I can manage it, especially since I do not know, as yet, whether or not I will go to any more re-enactments. So my question is, after all this rambling pre-amble, what would be good to wear to show that I am trying to fit in, but not totally authentic, which I cannot afford at present.
As a former reeenactor, I would suggest contacting a local reenacting group and talking to them first before investing money in "the hobby". Most reenacting units/groups will have a "probationary" period for new members to allow them to try things out and see if they like reenacting enough to invest so much time and money.
In addition, some groups will have "loaner" clothes and/or equipment.
From personal experience: research your period before you take the field, and seek out "old veterans" for their counsel and advice, especially when you start buying kit.
Todd
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I agree with Todd. If you want to do this for "little or no" cost to you, your best bet is to borrow some garb from one of the members of the reenactment group.
By the way, I hear it said all the time that "just because the first documented evidence of the great kilt was 1594 doesn't mean it wasn't worn before that date." Which is perfectly true, of course. However, usually it is being said in order to justify wearing the great kilt for reenactments from 100 or 200 years prior to the date in question. While I would accept someone wearing the great kilt for a period of a decade or two before 1594, for the reason stated, there really is absolutely no reason to assume anything like the great kilt was worn in the fourteenth or fifteenth centuries.
What would have been worn by the Highland Gaelic Scots at the time would have been very much like contemporary Irish dress. What would have been worn by Lowland Scots would have been very much like contemporary English dress -- which you can easily find on the web site that I referred to.
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Todd and Matt are spot on!
I did Rev war for many years, more, in fact, than the war itself, odd huh! lol
You need to contact whichever group might be closest and most active. They, more than likely, will have a probationary period, and will loan you stuff, but, you will be expected to accumulate your own. I will tell you now, THIS IS NOT A CHEAP HOBBY! Many groups can be real sticklers about accuracy. We were checked for accuracy before Yorktown! Slept on hay, not sleeping bags!
Check it out before you go whole hog. It's lots of fun, it is addictive, but it is expensive!!!! Saying that you don't want to spend more money, well, you are in for a real shocker!
What helps to make it worth it is if the group does living history as well, at least then you will get more use out of your, EXPENSIVE, kit!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M. A. C. Newsome
By the way, I hear it said all the time that "just because the first documented evidence of the great kilt was 1594 doesn't mean it wasn't worn before that date." Which is perfectly true, of course. However, usually it is being said in order to justify wearing the great kilt for reenactments from 100 or 200 years prior to the date in question. While I would accept someone wearing the great kilt for a period of a decade or two before 1594, for the reason stated, there really is absolutely no reason to assume anything like the great kilt was worn in the fourteenth or fifteenth centuries.
True, but I wonder just what the progression to the Great Kilt was and how long it took. In all honesty I cannot see that the Highland Gaelic Scot would progress from wearing something like contemporary English dress to wearing something like a kilt. Not that it could not happen that way, it is just a huge (impossible?) stretch of the imagination to see how it could have happened.
A much easier thing to see would be a progression from the léine and brat, something that was known to be worn by the Irish in earlier times as you yourself write, to a kilt. Still, I guess we will never really know.
As for asking a local group, well, it seems that this sort of question can be a bit of a religious issue, if you know what I mean when I say that, and I am reluctant to bring it up for that reason.
Oh well, may be I will just visit and not partake...
Mark
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Sure, I know what you mean, but there are groups doing it!
If you were to join the SCA here, they are hugely strict about authentic attire!
Go first, enjoy, get to talk to the guys doing it. Express an intrest and they will bend your ear all day!
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Quote:
As for asking a local group, well, it seems that this sort of question can be a bit of a religious issue, if you know what I mean when I say that, and I am reluctant to bring it up for that reason.
Actually, I'm a bit confused by this statement; reenactment units/groups generally are not "religious groups", they are more like clubs and societies centered around a particular hobby.
For example, the Society of the Sealed Knot in the UK is for English Civil War (ECW) reenactors.
Todd
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Originally Posted by cajunscot
Actually, I'm a bit confused by this statement; reenactment units/groups generally are not "religious groups", they are more like clubs and societies centered around a particular hobby.
For example, the Society of the Sealed Knot in the UK is for English Civil War (ECW) reenactors.
Todd
Perhaps that is just a British expression. To describe something as a "religious issue" means that it is a contentious topic which causes disagreements, mostly heated, and schisms, possibly violent, in the members of an group that purport to represent the same thing.
It stems from the way in which most religions purport to represent God but insist that theirs is the only way and that the others are wrong often causing wars and feuds in the process.
An example would be the Society of the Sealed Knot and the English Civil War Society in Britain. Both are re-enactment groups but disagree on the way to do things.
Another possible example would be the topic of whether or not you have to be a clan member to wear a clan tartan.
Does that clarify the saying?
Mark
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Originally Posted by Tetley
Perhaps that is just a British expression. To describe something as a "religious issue" means that it is a contentious topic which causes disagreements, mostly heated, and schisms, possibly violent, in the members of an group that purport to represent the same thing.
It stems from the way in which most religions purport to represent God but insist that theirs is the only way and that the others are wrong often causing wars and feuds in the process.
An example would be the Society of the Sealed Knot and the English Civil War Society in Britain. Both are re-enactment groups but disagree on the way to do things.
Another possible example would be the topic of whether or not you have to be a clan member to wear a clan tartan.
Does that clarify the saying?
Mark
Oh, yes...and I would add that here in the States, reenactment groups tend to form like some churches...over disagreements in theology, etc. :cool:
However, you'll find all sorts of reenactors...from the "hardcore authentics" to the casual folks in "the hobby".
T.
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Tetley,
I am a member of a living history re-enactment guild, as noted in my signature. We recreate the court of Mary Stewart circa 1562 and are fairly relaxed as far as being historically acurate. For example: alot of the men in our guild who portray soldiers of the Queen"s military wear great kilts (usually solid black, which was hard to come by in the 15th and 16th centuries), our Guild Master refers to himself as the Queen's brother, James Stewart, Prince of Scotland (James Stewart, the Earl of Moray was her ilegitamate half-brother and would have had no claim to the throne), the woman who portrays Mary is 46 years old (historically speaking, at this age, Mary has been dead for at least two years).
On the other hand, we play whith guilds that are part of SCA and they are rabidly historically acurate. ie: Only the Queen wore purple, the kilt wasn't worn until MUCH later, etc. As has been suggested, go and have fun.
Robert
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Fashion changes over time for all kinds of reasons. Many things contribute to the reasons for people whom wear what it is what they wear...
Quote:
From W.H Murray's "Rob Roy MacGregor" Chap 3 The Barefoot Years 1673-1684 page 31:
Section on Spring
"The Springs came late, for Scotland was suffering an oscillation of climate that had brought the greatest cold since the Ice Age. It reached the worst between 1550 and 1700 with a vast expansion of Arctic pack ice. The sea-temperatures off Scotland in Winter slumped to 3°C (5° below present).
copyright is from 1982
Not saying this is the reason for the belted plaid, but I'm sure it is a major contribution to the use.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetley
True, but I wonder just what the progression to the Great Kilt was and how long it took. In all honesty I cannot see that the Highland Gaelic Scot would progress from wearing something like contemporary English dress to wearing something like a kilt. Not that it could not happen that way, it is just a huge (impossible?) stretch of the imagination to see how it could have happened.
A much easier thing to see would be a progression from the léine and brat, something that was known to be worn by the Irish in earlier times as you yourself write, to a kilt. Still, I guess we will never really know.
I never said that Highland Scots went from wearing English-style clothing to wearing the feilidh-mor. What I said was that in the period you are looking at (14th and 15th centuries), Lowland (English speaking) scots would have dressed like their English contemporaries, while Highland (Gaelic speaking) Scots would have dressed like their Irish contemporaries, which is where we find the leine and brat. It is this fashion that would later give rise to the feilidh-mor, and the first evidence we have of that is in 1594.
I'll only point out that we do have several different references describing what the Highland Gaels wore from the first half of the sixteenth century and none of them mention anything that might be considered an early feilidh-mor. So, going by the evidence we have (which is all we can go by, really), I'd feel fairly confidant saying that the feilidh-mor was not worn in the first half of the 1500s.
So if one is doing reenactment, I can see how wearing the feilidh-mor for, say, a 1580s impression or even 1570s might be justified. But not 1540s. And certainly not 1400's. This was the point I was trying to make.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetley
As for asking a local group, well, it seems that this sort of question can be a bit of a religious issue, if you know what I mean when I say that, and I am reluctant to bring it up for that reason.
Oh well, may be I will just visit and not partake...
Mark
You haven't really posted that many details about the group that you would be reenacting with, so maybe there is something I'm not seeing. But it seems to me that if one of the members has invited you to participate and you don't want or are not able to invest in the proper clothing, they should not be offended if you ask if there might be anything they could loan you for the occasion. I know a lot of reenactment groups keep a loaner stock on hand for folks coming out the first time.
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Originally Posted by M. A. C. Newsome
...What I said was that in the period you are looking at (14th and 15th centuries), Lowland (English speaking) scots would have dressed like their English contemporaries, while Highland (Gaelic speaking) Scots would have dressed like their Irish contemporaries, which is where we find the leine and brat. ...
I would think that those living in the Lowlands at that time would be quick to tell you that they spoke Scots (or Lallans), not English.
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The best advice....
...has already been given. Talk to the group that your going to reenact with and find out their criteria & level of authenticity. Then beg, borrow, or steal from them before jumping in whole hog :wink:
As a living historian myself, I would highly recommend this article on authenticity & documentation: http://www.re-enactmentevents.com/re-enact/Proposal.php
when I first got involved in ACW (American Civil War or War Between the States) out here on the left coast, it was still somewhat of a farb fest, but there were those of us (myself included) who researched our units, & I gathered reams of 1st person documentation of what our unit (2nd Kentucky Cavalry - Morgan's Raiders) wore, utilized as weapons, & behaved generally.
Any way, read the article & follow that great advice on contacting the host group.....and have fun with it! :D
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Originally Posted by gilmore
I would think that those living in the Lowlands at that time would be quick to tell you that they spoke Scots (or Lallans), not English.
I doubt they would it find it a matter of controversy, considering they themselves normally called their language "Inglis" at the time. They only referred to their speech as "Scottis" occasionally, when it was necessary to distinguish it from the speech of those who spoke Southern.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M. A. C. Newsome
I never said that Highland Scots went from wearing English-style clothing to wearing the feilidh-mor. What I said was that in the period you are looking at (14th and 15th centuries), Lowland (English speaking) scots would have dressed like their English contemporaries, while Highland (Gaelic speaking) Scots would have dressed like their Irish contemporaries, which is where we find the leine and brat. It is this fashion that would later give rise to the feilidh-mor, and the first evidence we have of that is in 1594.
Sorry, I changed the subject slightly without telling anyone :(
Mark
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Originally Posted by M. A. C. Newsome
You haven't really posted that many details about the group that you would be reenacting with, so maybe there is something I'm not seeing. But it seems to me that if one of the members has invited you to participate and you don't want or are not able to invest in the proper clothing, they should not be offended if you ask if there might be anything they could loan you for the occasion. I know a lot of reenactment groups keep a loaner stock on hand for folks coming out the first time.
That is because I am not entirely sure which one it will be. However, from discussions with re-enacters both recently and from way back I am reluctant to bring up a subject that has been slightly contentious.
I do not think that any of the groups that I am likely to be visiting would have "loaner" kit, again judging from past conversations and I think for now that I will just go along in my everyday attire and see what is going on. Then I can judge what my next move will be.
Admittedly, the whole re-enactment scene is a bit of a mystery to me.
Mark
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Originally Posted by Tetley
That is because I am not entirely sure which one it will be. However, from discussions with re-enacters both recently and from way back I am reluctant to bring up a subject that has been slightly contentious.
I do not think that any of the groups that I am likely to be visiting would have "loaner" kit, again judging from past conversations and I think for now that I will just go along in my everyday attire and see what is going on. Then I can judge what my next move will be.
Admittedly, the whole re-enactment scene is a bit of a mystery to me.
Mark
Generally, loaner "kit" belongs to individuals -- an extra pair shoes, trousers, etc. Most reenactors have a closet full of gear, and generally keep some for the very purpose to loan out to "fresh fish". :cool:
T.
T.
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Originally Posted by gilmore
I would think that those living in the Lowlands at that time would be quick to tell you that they spoke Scots (or Lallans), not English.
I wrote "Highland (Gaelic speaking)" and "Lowland (English speaking)" to underscore the fact that I was talking about the cultural Highland/Lowland divide rather than the geographic one. At various times in Scotland's history the Highland culture and Gaelic language would have extended well into territory that we might consider geographically in the Lowlands.
But you are correct, the language spoken by those "English" speaking Lowlanders would have at various times been referred to as "Scots" or "Scottis" or "Doric" or "Lallans" or "Inglis" or even "English." I simply didn't feel the need to use every possible identification of the language/dialect (depending on how you define it).
~M
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Originally Posted by LANCER1562
I am a member of a living history re-enactment guild, as noted in my signature. We recreate the court of Mary Stewart circa 1562 and are fairly relaxed as far as being historically acurate. For example: alot of the men in our guild who portray soldiers of the Queen"s military wear great kilts (usually solid black, which was hard to come by in the 15th and 16th centuries), our Guild Master refers to himself as the Queen's brother, James Stewart, Prince of Scotland (James Stewart, the Earl of Moray was her ilegitamate half-brother and would have had no claim to the throne), the woman who portrays Mary is 46 years old (historically speaking, at this age, Mary has been dead for at least two years).
I don't mean to be contentious here, I'm finding this thread quite interesting, but isn't it a contradiction to say you are a "living history re-enactment guild" and then state you don't care too much about accuracy?
Do you tell your audience which bits are fibs so they don't go off thinking the inaccurate bits are, well, accurate? Isn't the purpose of these groups to dispel the myths and inaccuracies that have made their way into popular culture?
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Mark (Tetley).....I have skimmed through these posts and I see that Woodsheal chimed in (friend of mine who does Jacobite with me), so I'm not sure of all you want. But, if you want to see a Jacobite reenactment here in U.S., visit us at Oswego, NY, Fort Ontario, Labor Day weekend. http://jacobite1745.homestead.com/Culloden2006.html has a lot of photos of our past several years doing Jacobite, although from what I read, you are thinking of doing earlier. AND, our main impressions are 42nd and 77th Highland Regiments for French and Indian War and Rev. War. However, if you want to learn more about reenacting, post a message to me personally or come visit at Oswego. Malcolm
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Originally Posted by Malcolm MacWilliam
Mark (Tetley).....I have skimmed through these posts and I see that Woodsheal chimed in (friend of mine who does Jacobite with me), so I'm not sure of all you want. But, if you want to see a Jacobite reenactment here in U.S., visit us at Oswego, NY, Fort Ontario, Labor Day weekend. http://jacobite1745.homestead.com/Culloden2006.html has a lot of photos of our past several years doing Jacobite, although from what I read, you are thinking of doing earlier. AND, our main impressions are 42nd and 77th Highland Regiments for French and Indian War and Rev. War. However, if you want to learn more about reenacting, post a message to me personally or come visit at Oswego. Malcolm
Thanks for the invite, if I am ever in America I will take you up on it.
Mark
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Originally Posted by BoldHighlander
I like that article a lot, Alan Gutchess summarises the research approach to living history very effectively. I particularly like his advice to minimize the effect of any speculation you have to make.
For me, re-enactment is about giving as acccurate a portrayal as current research allows, with room for reasoned inference and variety in interpretation: thats part of the fun for me, but plenty of folk prefer to focus on craft or weapon skills, or just immersion in the campfire life without spending all their time in the library, so just go for a simpler, low status impression and there's not much to argue with.
So my advice is to aim to achieve the humblest outfit - a simple tunic (a big poofy shirt down to kilt length might do it :D) and a plain brown thin leather belt with a D buckle. If you aren't happy with the belt hoik the tunic up to overhang and obscure it. If you want a mantle, I'd avoid a proper tartan plaid, but you might be able to drape a rough weave plain or simple check blanket over your shoulder, cutting off any modern zig zag machine stitching and maybe pin it on the right shoulder or so it goes in a loop under the opposite armpit with a thin stick sharpened to make a big thorn shape. With some rough string and a bit of care folding it that can replace a bag/pocket. Shoes are always the hardest, but you might be able to pick up something basic enough: to me they look a bit like leather slippers - low with flat external soles. I've done an event in bare feet, but only the once...
You might find William E. Wilson's page on the subject useful:
http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~wew/celt-clothing/
Have a good time :)
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Originally Posted by Tetley
Still, just because the earliest known date is circa 1594 do not mean to say that something like that was not worn, just that there is no record of it.
Mark
and Mark, that is the rub many proto-reenactors think should be the rule. Unfortunately, it is not! The whole point of doing reenacting is you are expected to become a historical archeologist (SP) of sorts. Delving into the written and/or visual arts to have the provanance of everything you wear or own. Otherwise you just wind up looking like a rag bag of different parts and pieces from different times. There is no record of something because it didn't exist then. What do you think all that stuff in museums is all about. Just about everything that has ever been made by humans is in a museum or in a work of art somewhere.
The technological mentality of the era is important as well. You can't possibley be in character with a damascas steel dirk on you hip because that technology did not exist anywhere else other than in North Africa. Modern black smiths and knife makers didn't discover that technology untill late in the 20th cantury.
Using your premis "If they had of had it they would have usd it" simply isn't the best approach and sometimes you will embarass youself showing up in something that couldn't possibley had been in use in the time your living in. Really, we can't advise you what to wear because we don't know "Who" you are going to be and in what era you existed. Finally, for gods sake don't show up with a stainless seel anything. :(
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