|
-
Process of Receiving Arms from South Africa
I thought I would start this thread as an education piece in the event anyone else wanted to go thru the process of having arms registered from South Africa.
So as I stated in my previous thread, I had a goal of receiving arms. First, I will start off with saying that I have no familial ties with South Africa; however, after long deliberation with the Lord Lyon, Ireland, and South Africa I went with South Africa. My reason was due to having a desire that the arms be granted to me, not a line of ancestors that I would pay for an anyone could later tap into, genealogical effort, and to some extent money. While I do hope to one day have these arms registered in Scotland for purely stubborn, personal reasons-I have to say of all the heraldic bureaus I liked the philosophy of South Africa the best. As an American I could assume the arms and just register them with NEHGS or American College of Heraldry; however, I felt that South Africa having a government sanctioned office lent more credibility to the arms internationally and within my own Clan Association. (That is purely MY opinion and does not reflect anything else.) Ok that is out of the way....
The process is very straight forward and the people at the S.A. Bureau of Heraldry are quite simply Amazing. They will do everything from registering your heraldic correct design to design a Coat of Arms for you based on your own curriculum vitae. Additionally, if you are close to being "there" on a coat of arms you can submit to them a rendition or blazon of those arms and they can tell you if they meet the requirements/traditions etc. They will also work with you prior to payment and submission to come up with finalized touches. (In my case it was the creation of a double tressure thistle-counter thistle.) Payment is straight forward using electronic funds transfer from your bank to theirs and all your signed documents can be emailed to their office.
After all this is received your blazon/proposal is given to an artist and they will provide you with a rough sketch in approx 2 or so weeks. Once, this is agreed upon it goes back for the final painting and calligraphy. Currently I am waiting for the rough sketch....more to follow.
-
Didn't your family already have a coat of arms?
-
A quick point of clarification: To the best of my knowledge the South African Bureau of Heraldry does not grant arms; they register them. That said, it is an official government registration, as opposed to a registration with a private entity, but it is nonetheless a registration.
-
hkjrb623,
I hope WVHighlander doesn't mind me responding to your question. If so, I'm sure he'll correct me or add his thoughts as well.
Coats of arms, in their original use, were carried or worn to identify an individual on the battlefield when a helmet would obscure his features. Because families were regularly involved in the same conflicts (sometimes on both sides), it wouldn't make too much sense for each family to only have one coat of arms. Their heraldry was similar enough that people could tell that they were kin, but different enough that they could be distinguished from one another in the fighting.
Despite what the folks in the heraldry shop at Disney Land (and other shops, for that matter) might say, the heraldry of the UK and Commonwealth countries is still individual, not family, in the same way it always had been. The only exception to this rule is the clansman's crest badge, which is the clan chief's crest surrounded by a strap and buckle with the motto inscribed on it. This, so far as I know, is the only traditional way, and the only legal way in Scotland, to bear a part of another person's heraldry.
If one wishes to use a coat of arms in Scotland, it must first be registered with the Lord Lyon King of Arms, who is the heraldic authority in Scotland. As I am sure you've gathered, South Africa also has a bureau of heraldry with which WVHighlander has begun the registration process, though those arms would not be legal for use in Scotland unless WVHighlander also had them registered with Lyon.
Basically, unless your father had a coat of arms granted to him, and you were his first son (or the heir to those arms), you would need to petition your own coat of arms, differenced accordingly, if you wanted to use one.
I hope that made some sense, despite being somewhat off the original topic!
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnus
If one wishes to use a coat of arms in Scotland, it must first be registered with the Lord Lyon King of Arms, who is the heraldic authority in Scotland. As I am sure you've gathered, South Africa also has a bureau of heraldry with which WVHighlander has begun the registration process, though those arms would not be legal for use in Scotland unless WVHighlander also had them registered with Lyon.
Almost, but not quite right. If a non-Scottish armiger takes up residence in Scotland, then he is required to register his arms with the Lord Lyon, should he choose to publicly display those arms. However, if visiting Scotland then no such requirement exists.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerDrummer
A quick point of clarification: To the best of my knowledge the South African Bureau of Heraldry does not grant arms; they register them. That said, it is an official government registration, as opposed to a registration with a private entity, but it is nonetheless a registration.
SD, quite right. I thought that is what I said on the first line?? I hope I didn't misspeak in my post.
hkjrb623, I know you my read Cyngus response and feel a bit dubious; however, its very true. I also thought that families had arms....went so far at to purchase my first surname coat of arms items years ago in Georgia for $30..which was a lot back then for a bit of paper. However, those arms belong to one person. Arms are property of an individual that can be passed down to his heirs, and even then only the oldest son (in English, Irish, and Scottish tradition) receive the exact arms after the armiger dies. All the rest of the kids can get the arms matriculated with some difference to show they weren't the oldest.
Cygus, thank you for answering that question regarding family arms. Rath is quite right though on the use of arms whilst visiting. (I have the email from the Lyon's office for proof) So in 2014 I am quite safe to got the Gathering at Stirling and use my arms whether it be in a cap badge or flag or stationary etc. However, according to the Lyon's office: if a person is staying in Scotland for more than 180 days, going to Scotland on a regular basis (several times a year), or purchases property in Scotland and will be using their arms then is must be registered with the Lyon.
Scott, always the sage one! Thanks.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown
Almost, but not quite right. If a non-Scottish armiger takes up residence in Scotland, then he is required to register his arms with the Lord Lyon, should he choose to publicly display those arms. However, if visiting Scotland then no such requirement exists.
Thank you for the correction - that is something that I learned on this forum (from you, if I remember correctly, in an example of a Spaniard with arms visiting Scotland). I had wanted to keep from muddying the water with too much information, but my word choice was very poor for what I intended. I should have said "...while living in Scotland" instead and specified that WVHighlander's arms wouldn't be legal for permanent or frequent use in Scotland.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by WVHighlander
hkjrb623, I know you my read Cyngus response and feel a bit dubious; however, its very true. I also thought that families had arms....went so far at to purchase my first surname coat of arms items years ago in Georgia for $30..which was a lot back then for a bit of paper. However, those arms belong to one person. Arms are property of an individual that can be passed down to his heirs, and even then only the oldest son (in English, Irish, and Scottish tradition) receive the exact arms after the armiger dies. All the rest of the kids can get the arms matriculated with some difference to show they weren't the oldest.
.
My family has only had one coat of arms, and it has only been given to the oldest sons. That is why I'm in possession of it now. I wasn't really aware of it being a more common tradition, I just accepted it as a close family tradition. I learn something everyday.:)
No offense meant, I just don't understand why this is so important. Passing on the knowledge of your family's heritage seems more important than a piece of paper in my opinion. I didn't pay close enough attention to completely learn mine as most kids do. Now I have to go through the paces to try to chase down the lineage. I should have just listened before some of them passed. Besides if this was used as an identifier in combat, isn't it sort of false advertisement if you're not using it for that?
-
It is important to me because there is no lineage to pass down, and I am using it as an illustration...a marking point to begin a lineage. Next, my identifiers for combat (unit patch, regimental markings, etc.) do not belong to me they belong to the U.S. Army. This Coat of Arms is mine and it embodies symbolism important to me, my family and it will stand as a marker for the expectations I have of my children and I hope they will have for theirs.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkjrb623
My family has only had one coat of arms, and it has only been given to the oldest sons. That is why I'm in possession of it now. I wasn't really aware of it being a more common tradition, I just accepted it as a close family tradition. I learn something everyday.:)
No offense meant, I just don't understand why this is so important. Passing on the knowledge of your family's heritage seems more important than a piece of paper in my opinion. I didn't pay close enough attention to completely learn mine as most kids do. Now I have to go through the paces to try to chase down the lineage. I should have just listened before some of them passed. Besides if this was used as an identifier in combat, isn't it sort of false advertisement if you're not using it for that?
Heraldry grew out of a need to mark property, and to verify agreement to legal documents during an era that was by-and-large totally illiterate. Heraldry was commonly used to prove ownership of everything from pots and pans to buildings, while a wax seal, emblazoned with the heraldic cognizances of its owner, provided irrefutable authentication to a signature or mark placed on a document, especially wills, those legal documents so necessary for the orderly transfer of property from one generation to the next.
So, while heraldry was used as a personal identifier in combat (most often as a flag or banner), it's general use was far wider than the battlefield -- hence its survival in the present day as a means of identifying members of distinct families, their relationship to one another, and as one means of identifying the property they own. In short, far from being a "false advertisement" of military prowess, heraldry is a Technicolor book mark in the history and heritage of one's family.
-
Is there any benefit to having South African registered arms in America? Would it be illegal to display arms not registered in the USA, or is the registering only needed for when the arms are being used in South Africa?
-
There are no heraldic authorities in the U.S. so as such one doesn't need to register arms in the U.S. In the U.S. arms can be assumed and used. South Africa also does not require a registration of arms, one can assume their arms as well, but a registration with the bureau provides the armgier with a written record of their arms as well as the expertise of the bureau's office in designing arms that do not infringe upon someone else's.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackrose87
Is there any benefit to having South African registered arms in America? Would it be illegal to display arms not registered in the USA, or is the registering only needed for when the arms are being used in South Africa?
Not everyone can meet the standard of proof required for a grant of arms from the office of the Lord Lyon. Since almost all chiefs recognize arms recorded in foreign jurisdictions, even if those arms do not appear in the Lyon registers, those Americans who have English, Canadian, South African, Spanish, or Irish registered arms are free to display them on an equal footing with Scottish armigers. The same does not seem apply to those arms which are "privately" registered.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by WVHighlander
There are no heraldic authorities in the U.S. so as such one doesn't need to register arms in the U.S. In the U.S. arms can be assumed and used. South Africa also does not require a registration of arms, one can assume their arms as well, but a registration with the bureau provides the armgier with a written record of their arms as well as the expertise of the bureau's office in designing arms that do not infringe upon someone else's.
...someone else's in South Africa. The South African Bureau of Heraldry does not confirm that arms registered with them are not used in other jurisdictions.
-
Ken, I am starting to think you are an English teacher...!! I need to be more on my toes.:cool:
Actually, I have heard from the different heralds that it is almost impossible to guarantee uniqueness in arms. (Something that I am sure will diminish with tech since a blazon could be entered into a database and queried much like plagiarism on a paper.) However, from my understanding all the heralds strive to insure an individua's arms do not infringe on someone's arms that are registered with a heraldic authority. Even without a data base to do an immediate queries, the heralds do have records of arms and pictures that they can look through.
Additionally, the use of some aspects of the Chief's arms helps to make it unique. The Clan genealogist has been working or collecting all the arms registered to people with the surname Cochran....there is quite a few people. For the most part the Boar's head is used...with some exceptions of course.... but each are unique from the other. Additionally, I did a little work on my own, because I surely don't want something that is a knock off from someone else's arms. To do that I looked at the American College of Heraldry, Scottish Society of Armigers, Armiger's society of Canada, the society of England, Wales, and North Ireland,and also the recorded arms of Ireland...and many others sites. My main point being if I can do this as a neophyte, I am sure the heraldry office can do this with greater ability as the experts. Furthermore, I had to provide the S.A. Bureau with an ok from the Chief to use those aspects of his arms...
Of course if Jimmy Cockram saw my arms and thought..."Hey I like that I am going to use it in the US." And he registered it with the American College of Heraldry, no one would be the wiser. Furthermore, there would be nothing I could do about it other than calling him out in public.....who would REALLY care. Again it goes back to the point mentioned many other times....it is personal preference.
If I had my druthers, I will eventually have them registered in Edinburgh. However, I must underline the fact that I was so impressed with the knowledge, expertise, and responses of Marcel at the S.A. Bureau that I WANT them to be the heraldic authority that helps design my CoA and register it first. In this quest to get a grant etc. I have approached every English speaking College or Bureau, to include the American College of Heraldry. Firstly with the ACH I never received a response back...which doesn't encourage me to plop down $350 to register arms! I also never heard from England. My only beef with Ireland was the expense and the amount of work I would have to do to get back to an Irish ancestor. Finally, while I love Scotland etc., my big beef with the Lyon was the point of matriculation. This was a point I set out to them, but they are bound by precedence.
Sorry Ken...you got a little more in my rebuttal but you caught me at a particularly loquacious time.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by WVHighlander
Ken, I am starting to think you are an English teacher...!! I need to be more on my toes.:cool:
No, just a humble civil servant, though I do often tell my son, "Words have meanings and it's important that the words you use convey what you want to say." Of course on the other hand, I also occasionally have to plea, "Listen to what I mean, not what I say." :wink:
I didn't point that out, though, to correct you, but to point out that any heraldic authority's...well, authority only reaches as far as it's own borders. There are identical arms born in England and in Scotland, so it's silly to think that there isn't some overlap in countries divided by much greater distances. Most of the duplication predates the unification of the countries, but relatively recently Lord Lyon granted a coat of arms that is identical to a very old coat of arms in England. And quite simply put, it was a copy rather than an accident. Even so, it did not duplicate any Scottish arms, so there was no breach of law. All that said, your arms do appear to be unique and I'd be very surprised if they were not. Once you introduce a relatively new charge like the double tressure thistley, you're fairly well assured of a unique coat of arms.
(Also, my name is Kenneth.)
-
Thank you Ken. You know the most interesting thing I found in looking at all the different arms was the lack of Scottish arms with bears as a charge. From what I have read, the bear not the lion was considered the king of the animals until the introduction of the lion. To me the bear has so much inclusive symbolism coupled with the fact that there appears to be very little use of a bear rampant in Scottish arms. Here is a very interesting article regarding bears and heraldry that you might be interested in...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj
-
The bear is a lot more prevalent in Continental heraldry, true. You might try typing these into your Google search bar:
"site:www.ngw.nl bear" and "site:civicheraldry.co.uk bear"
Enjoy. :cool:
-
Thanks Ken. I had accidentally found the civic heraldry site once or twice. That was what amazed me....bears seemed to be predominately used for towns over people. (The exception being on the continent of course, like you stated.)
-
Thank W.V. for posting this. I look forward to following it.
-
Why was it, upon reading the title to this thread, I immediately thought "Well, first you need to get hold of an End User Certificate somehow, then find a bribable customs agent..." :lol:
Sorry, my mind just works that way.
Cheers!
Phil
-
LOL....funny. I hope Mike O. doesn't see this!!
-
OK. So I just received word from S.A. that the line drawing of the CoA is completed and being transferred to paper. This if for the draft, only. (wow) All of this is hand done and, as the Deputy Herald pointed out, none can be done by computer. I am thinking the draft will be completed soon and I will post the picture when I receive it.
-
So, this goes to show I am still learning. I just received the draft tonight from the S.A. Bureau of Heraldry for review. This is the first go around...but I am thinking it looks pretty good...
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/.../draft_COA.jpg
-
Very nice! I find it interesting that the escroll is Sable with Argent lettering; was that something you requested or is it artistic license?
-
Artistic license. Past the arms and crest I have no input.
-
Very nice, but I would ask for the helmet to be in profile so that it is facing the same way as the crest. I mean, if you were wearing that on your head, you wouldn't want the horse facing off to the side like that. Just my two cents.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by WVHighlander
It is much better than "pretty good"... I think however that you would find your crest would have more character if it were crined and unguled either Or or Sable. (For the non-blazon crowd "crined" refers to the mane and tail, and "unguled" to the hooves.)
-
-
The more I look at it the more I like it, and I liked it alot when I submitted my rough draft. I will definitely think about the suggestion Rath. That would look good. I am supposed to get back with S.A. and give them a thumbs up or suggest changes soon. But all in all, I will be very proud to have this displayed in my home and pass it on to my kids.
-
Here is my blazen as it will appear in the South African gazette...
ARMS: Argent, a bear rampant Sable, armed and langued Gules, between three boar’s heads erased Azure, armed Argent, placed two and one, all within a double tressure thistle-counter thistle Gules.
CREST: A stallion rampant Argent.
WREATH AND MANTLING: Sable and Argent.
MOTTO: FORTUNAM MEAM FACIO
-
Sounds great! Congratulations, mate.
Cheers,
-
A handsome coat of arms, my West Virginian friend.
I did wonder about the crest, since a full-size beast (in this instance, horse) is harder to recognise than its head, but that is your choice.
Regarding the colouring of the motto, in British (and South African) heraldry, this is a matter of personal choice or fancy. However in some jurisdictions not only the colouring but even the typeface may be prescribed.
As for bribing a customs officer . . . although bribes are all too common in South Africa’s bloated government service, the Bureau is entirely unconnected with the Customs service (now a branch of the SA Revenue Services), and I have yet to hear of anything untoward in Marcel van Rossum’s office.
Regards,
Mike
-
Mike,
Thank you for the compliment. Marcel stated that this was a "one of a kind" coat of arms, which I was very pleased to hear.
I will one of the first to speak on the complete professionalism of Marcel van Rossum and the S.A. Bureau. He has been fantastic and in constant communication with me. (He is also trying to talk me into taking a trip and do some archery hunting in the S.A. bush.)
Cheers,
John
-
Here is the S.A. gazette where both Mike Oettle and my arms are published....
http://www.info.gov.za/view/Download...tion?id=165042
-
Thank you, WVH.
Regards,
Mike
-
Again, a heartfelt congratulations to you both! Now, on to the bespoke silver circlets, crests, et al!
Best wishes,
-
Very beautiful! I agree with Rathdown on having the horse crined and unguled. Better contrast. Wish I had done this with my crest which is all or.
-
I really thought about it, but I wanted some similarity between mine and the Chief's. I almost went with the horse passant like his, but decided on the rampant to denote/symbolize some military aspects.
-
I've received my official letter from S.A. stating that my arms have not been contested. I can't wait to get the final cert and painting! I hope Mike received his letter as well.
|
|
