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Dressing formally kilted, noob
Hi all, long time no post!
I am going to an Opera Ball, dress codes states "Formal Attire", and I have been specifically told by the Chairpersons to come kilted. Most will be in tuxedos, though they said some just show in suits.
I don't think my charcoal tweed Argyle jacket will cut it, so I'm looking at Black Barathea Argyle instead, correct?
I have a black L+M sporran - will this do? I've never liked furry sporrans.
I have black ghillie brogues. I may go with regular oxfords instead.
I probably need a sock upgrade - while I have black, green or navy, they're not what I would call "quality"
I have a Dress Gordon kilt which I think will do nicely. It was good enough to be married in, good enough now.
What else am I missing? or what substitutions would you recommend please?
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Black Baretha argyle is fine. Wear the best sporran you have. Personally, I would wear normal oxfords rather that gillies. Diced hose might be a nice touch too.
sounds like a fun event. Enjoy!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony
Hi all, long time no post!
I am going to an Opera Ball, dress codes states "Formal Attire", and I have been specifically told by the Chairpersons to come kilted. Most will be in tuxedos, though they said some just show in suits.
I don't think my charcoal tweed Argyle jacket will cut it, so I'm looking at Black Barathea Argyle instead, correct?
I have a black L+M sporran - will this do? I've never liked furry sporrans.
I have black ghillie brogues. I may go with regular oxfords instead.
I probably need a sock upgrade - while I have black, green or navy, they're not what I would call "quality"
I have a Dress Gordon kilt which I think will do nicely. It was good enough to be married in, good enough now.
What else am I missing? or what substitutions would you recommend please?
Tony! Good to have you back.. What you have will work just fine. Any gaps that you may want to fill in are easy fixes; here's my list of stuff I wear when going to any sort of black tie function:
BLACK TIE:
White dress shirt* and black bow tie (preferably the kind you tie yourself)
Tartan kilt
Tartan, Argyle, Diced, or sold dark colour hose (socks)
Black, low cut shoes (oxfords or ghillies), polished to a very high shine
Black dress jacket (Argyll, coatee, or doublet) with silver buttons
Black (or coloured) three-button formal waistcoat (vest) OR (if not wearing a waistcoat)
Black dress dirk belt with silver belt plate (buckle) [belt should not be worn with a waistcoat]
Dress sporran (your choice of style; if leather then black)
*Dress shirts can be bought at many JC Penny stores; the kind with a soft, fold over collar, are generally more suited to black tie than the "wing collar" shirts. Another option is a "white on white" shirt of the kind worn with business suits as it can double up for black tie, and still be worn with a suit and tie when required.
Hope that helps!
Scott
MoR
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Thanks ST, MoR.
Scott, with saying "what you have will work just fine"....do you mean I could get away with the charcoal tweed Argyll?
As much as I'd like to give Rocky the business I'd prefer to spend several hundred dollars elsewhere (like a custom fit kilt. Hmmmmmm...now there's an idea....)
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And drat....
Forgot I'll have to learn how to knot a bow tie. I better get practicing.
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I'd think black rather than charcoal for the jacket. You might give some thought to a Spenser jacket, mentioned in this thread:
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...l-cheap-77030/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Seago
It's been so long, I completely forgot about that route!
thanks Dale.
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With the, unfortunately, rather loose interpretations of "formal" these days, you were told that suits would be seen. The kilt, however, does provide some interesting wiggle room. If your Argyle jacket is a dark charcoal and not too tweedy, wear that with a black bow tie and formal shirt. Since my family tartan has a grey background, I wear a dark grey PC. But I would not hesitate to wear my black Argyle to an opera ball if I wanted a different look. The chances are I will be only one there in a smart looking kilt outfit and I certainly won't be criticized for being underdressed.
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If your opera house is anything like the ones I've been in, the only time the light will be bright enough for anyone to tell the difference between your charcoal jacket and a black one is for the few minutes you spend in the lobby before and after the show, and then it'll probably only be noticed if you're standing beside someone wearing black. If 'twere I, I'd keep saving the $ for the kilt, wear the charcoal Argyll, and enjoy the opera. Which one is it, by the way?
*I just reread that you're going to a ball, not to the opera. My suggestion stands, regardless.*
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Sorry to be contrary, but there is nothing Formal about a tweed argyll jacket, regardless of color. If the invitation says "Formal Attire" I would go with MoR's initial response. Some peoples loose interpretation, our current financial situation, or what we think might work, does not change the definition, nor the expectations.
Buy the new jacket, at a budget price if need be, and go to the event without ever worrying that you are not up to the expressed and expected standard of dress.
Regards,
Brooke
PS. Here is a link to where I purchased mine. http://stores.ebay.com/CARSE-OF-GOWR...p2047675.l2563
It is 17oz, very well made and the service was perfect. Check his ratings!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown
Tony! Good to have you back.. What you have will work just fine. Any gaps that you may want to fill in are easy fixes; here's my list of stuff I wear when going to any sort of black tie function:
BLACK TIE:
White dress shirt* and black bow tie (preferably the kind you tie yourself)
Tartan kilt
Tartan, Argyle, Diced, or sold dark colour hose (socks)
Black, low cut shoes (oxfords or ghillies), polished to a very high shine
Black dress jacket (Argyll, coatee, or doublet) with silver buttons
Black (or coloured) three-button formal waistcoat (vest) OR (if not wearing a waistcoat)
Black dress dirk belt with silver belt plate (buckle) [belt should not be worn with a waistcoat]
Dress sporran (your choice of style; if leather then black)
*Dress shirts can be bought at many JC Penny stores; the kind with a soft, fold over collar, are generally more suited to black tie than the "wing collar" shirts. Another option is a "white on white" shirt of the kind worn with business suits as it can double up for black tie, and still be worn with a suit and tie when required.
Hope that helps!
Scott
MoR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMillan's son
Sorry to be contrary, but there is nothing Formal about a tweed argyll jacket, regardless of color. If the invitation says "Formal Attire" I would go with MoR's initial response. Some peoples loose interpretation, our current financial situation, or what we think might work, does not change the definition, nor the expectations.
Buy the new jacket, at a budget price if need be, and go to the event without ever worrying that you are not up to the expressed and expected standard of dress.
Regards,
Brooke
Like the thought process here Brooke :clap:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMillan's son
Sorry to be contrary, but there is nothing Formal about a tweed argyll jacket, regardless of color. If the invitation says "Formal Attire" I would go with MoR's initial response. Some peoples loose interpretation, our current financial situation, or what we think might work, does not change the definition, nor the expectations.
Buy the new jacket, at a budget price if need be, and go to the event without ever worrying that you are not up to the expressed and expected standard of dress.
Regards,
Brooke
PS. Here is a link to where I purchased mine. http://stores.ebay.com/CARSE-OF-GOWR...p2047675.l2563
It is 17oz, very well made and the service was perfect. Check his ratings!
I too, concur. Formal is still formal.
And I too, have made several purchases (some PV kilts and other items) from the eBay store linked to. Every item good quality, good prices, and fast delivery.
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Worse comes to worse, rent a black barathea Argyle or PC, splurge on a good bow tie and hose. Save more money for whatever!
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Maybe I'm missing something here but I've always been told that when attending the OPERA it is WHITE tie. When attending the SYMPHONY it is BLACK tie.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOfficialBren
Maybe I'm missing something here but I've always been told that when attending the OPERA it is WHITE tie. When attending the SYMPHONY it is BLACK tie.
I've been to the Opera many times.
You'd be hard pressed to find more than a dozen suits, let alone White Tie.
Thanks for the advice all. I really think the grey tweed wont cut it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMillan's son
Sorry to be contrary, but there is nothing Formal about a tweed argyll jacket, regardless of color. If the invitation says "Formal Attire" I would go with MoR's initial response. Some peoples loose interpretation, our current financial situation, or what we think might work, does not change the definition, nor the expectations.
Buy the new jacket, at a budget price if need be, and go to the event without ever worrying that you are not up to the expressed and expected standard of dress.
Regards,
Brooke
PS. Here is a link to where I purchased mine. http://stores.ebay.com/CARSE-OF-GOWR...p2047675.l2563
It is 17oz, very well made and the service was perfect. Check his ratings!
Thanks for the link - though I think by the time I've added in a vest and shipping, I'm approaching the price Rocky currently has on a jacket/vest combo. And I can be there in person to see if it fits...
Now crossing my fingers that he has right size, or Carse can get it here quickly enough, else Spencer it will definitely be.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony
I've been to the Opera many times.
You'd be hard pressed to find more than a dozen suits, let alone White Tie.
Thanks for the advice all. I really think the grey tweed wont cut it.
OIC. Then I believe that convention says to dress appropriate to the group. If a more dressed-down dress code is expected then go for it. Have fun. I like Opera and the other Serious music in addition to Rock, Metal, and Celtic.
:-)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOfficialBren
...I believe that convention says to dress appropriate to the group... If a more dressed-down dress code is expected then go for it.
While what one expects others to wear should be a consideration, it is not the only consideration. The venue, nature of the event and especially a dress code stated by the host or organizer must certainly also be of primary concern. In this case the dress code is explicit. Wearing a kilt does not exempt one from compliance to the host's or organizer's stated code, even though it's execution in the context of TCHD might differ from the Saxon version of appropriate and proper dress. It should be considered a condition of the invitation, regardless of whether or not others choose to honor it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Thorpe
While what one expects others to wear should be a consideration, it is not the only consideration. The venue, nature of the event and especially a dress code stated by the host or organizer must certainly also be of primary concern. In this case the dress code is explicit. Wearing a kilt does not exempt one from compliance to the host's or organizer's stated code, even though it's execution in the context of TCHD might differ from the Saxon version of appropriate and proper dress. It should be considered a condition of the invitation, regardless of whether or not others choose to honor it.
Which is why my FIRST post said that for OPERA one typically wears a WHITE tie. The OP suggested that there is a relaxed degree of formality at this particular Opera event.
Seems like an oxymoron to me...casual opera...to each their own, though.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony
Thanks for the link - though I think by the time I've added in a vest and shipping, I'm approaching the price Rocky currently has on a jacket/vest combo. And I can be there in person to see if it fits...
Now crossing my fingers that he has right size, or Carse can get it here quickly enough, else Spencer it will definitely be.
I believe the price includes the waistcoat Tony, I paid about that price when I bought mine and it included the waistcoat. However, in looking at the listing it does not specify that it includes it so check with them to be sure. I ordered my regular size in Highland jackets and it fit great. I received it in about 10 days via Royal Mail Signed For.
Not to take anything away from USAK, just another quality option if you choose.
Enjoy!
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Opening night for the opera season is taken to be the most formal evening, which only translates into black-tie semi-formal in Houston. The rest of the season, it's pretty much suit or even sports jacket. So far this season, I have only seen one man wear a white-tie outfit (which included a white business shirt with normal cuffs).
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I've talked to some of the folks at the the Lyric Opera in Chicago and they say that weeknights are usually business dress, weekends are semi to formal (though matinees are less so) and opening nights (especially opening of the season and gala events) are as-formal-as-you-can-muster. There's no real dress code, though - they'd rather you come in khakis than not come at all. And theatre and opera folk are usually fairly eccentric, so it's always a good time to dress in kilt, in my opinion.
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The OP mentioned he was going to an Opera Ball. A night out at the Opera is a different thing
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Indeed! Forget I said anything aboput opera at all!
:)
Formal, probably Black tie-ish.
Just about got myself approved for the idea of shelling out for jacket, vest and hose.
I can always justify a new pair of shiny black shoes.
Now do I need another kilt? (rhetorical question, most of us know the answer to that one)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOfficialBren
Maybe I'm missing something here but I've always been told that when attending the OPERA it is WHITE tie. When attending the SYMPHONY it is BLACK tie.
I think you would have to go back about 70 years for that to be the case. My wife and I attend several operas each year, numerous black tie opening night dinners, and an occasional opera ball. I can't recall ever seeing anyone in white tie and tails. There is, however, the occasional person who does not follow the "black tie" on the invitation. If someone is in the audience in formal attire, one assumes they have been to a prior event. T-shirts and shorts are a more common sight. Pretty much the same holds for the symphony and the ballet and their associated events. Kilts are unique, but always draw compliments.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cck
I think you would have to go back about 70 years for that to be the case. My wife and I attend several operas each year, numerous black tie opening night dinners, and an occasional opera ball. I can't recall ever seeing anyone in white tie and tails. There is, however, the occasional person who does not follow the "black tie" on the invitation. If someone is in the audience in formal attire, one assumes they have been to a prior event. T-shirts and shorts are a more common sight. Pretty much the same holds for the symphony and the ballet and their associated events. Kilts are unique, but always draw compliments.
Hmm...maybe but also it could vary by region. As for me, I dress as nicely as possible...NEVER jeans and a t-shirt for these sorts of events. I have not attended kilted, though, since I am new to the kilt.
It is not a common rock concert (ironic that I put it that way since I mainly do rock music)...it is more grand and upscale. Treat Serious Music (a broad term for all Classical/Opera/Baroque/Romantic/Post-Romantic musics) with the highest respect and it will enhance your image and enrich your life.
BTW, we should also note that we Americans are (painfully at times) casual with pretty much every thing. For example, every other country with a "president" as its head of state styles their president "His Excellency." The practice died out in the US in the very early 1800s and was replaced with the pseudo-egalitarian "Mr President."
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quick question - on the shirt, studs or no studs?
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Studs. You should never be able to see a shirt button.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown
BLACK TIE:
White dress shirt* and black bow tie (preferably the kind you tie yourself)
Tartan kilt
Tartan, Argyle, Diced, or sold dark colour hose (socks)
Black, low cut shoes (oxfords or ghillies), polished to a very high shine
Black dress jacket (Argyll, coatee, or doublet) with silver buttons
Hope that helps!
Scott
MoR
Why are silver buttons important? Is it a historical thing? Personal preference? I have been wondering why all the jackets have silver buttons.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SemperFyffe
Why are silver buttons important? Is it a historical thing? Personal preference? I have been wondering why all the jackets have silver buttons.
Day wear attire makes use of leather, horn, or plastic buttons. Formal day wear attire makes use of black cloth, jett, or silver buttons, while formal evening attire requires silver buttons. Generally speaking brass buttons are used on military uniforms; the uniforms of civilian pipe bands quite often use silver, as opposed to brass, buttons.
The wide spread use of silver buttons with formal civilian dress was, and is, due to the regulations stipulating the attire to be worn when attending a leveé, or a formal dinner in the presence of the Sovereign or a member of the royal family (this would include formal dinners hosted by the Lord Lieutenant of the County, or where the Lord Lieutenant was present in an official capacity).
The conventions of Highland attire generally date from mid-to late Victorian times (1860-1901) as Highland attire began to more closely follow the patterns of ordinary civilian dress. By the 1920s gentleman's Highland dress had become virtually the same as ordinary dress, although the cut of the jacket and waistcoat was obviously different to accommodate the rise of the kilt.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Llama
Studs. You should never be able to see a shirt button.
Thanks Llama.
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Thank-you MacMillan! I thought there would be a good explaination. I have another question for you. I have had my old Marine Corps dress blue jacket converted for wear as a formal jacket with my kilt. It originally had gold buttons which suit the jacket really well and being cheap like I am, I can't see spending good money on silver buttons to replace perfectly good gold ones, but I feel as though I stick out like a sore thumb... Is it considered poor form to wear gold buttons versus the silver?
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I think that gold buttons worn with that tartan would look smashing!
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That is a beautiful kilt! Where does one find the dress blue tartan? I have never seen it. The only one I am familiar with is the horrid green "official" USMC tartan which I just can't bring myself to like. I think I have my next kilt picked out! Thanks!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SemperFyffe
That is a beautiful kilt! Where does one find the dress blue tartan? I have never seen it. The only one I am familiar with is the horrid green "official" USMC tartan which I just can't bring myself to like. I think I have my next kilt picked out! Thanks!
For a start the Leatherneck tartan is not an "official" USMC tartan, it has adopted by those who serve or have served in the USMC. As to where you can get the new blue one, Steve the owner of this forum and Freedom Kilts designed, had the tartan woven and made the initial kilt. I suggest you contact him for any details and/or orders
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Neither the Leatherneck nor the Dress Blue Tartans are officially adopted by the USMC. The Corps does not have a kilt as a part of the uniform nor in its history. An exception is the Reserve Pipe Band who wear a solid color kilt.
Both the Leatherneck and the Dress Blue Tartans were designed to honor the Corps and those who have or are serving.
I have the remainder of the first run of the Dress Blue Tartan fabric here in my shop.
I can make you a kilt or send you just the fabric.
I am simply an email, phone or Skype call away.
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I decided my day sporran was far too day-ish, and so a L&M dress badger should be being held up by US Customs any minute now. Fingers crossed it makes it in time!
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