I've had several threads I posted about dressing traditionally moved from this thread to others. Threads about tweed kilt jackets have been moved to how to accessorize your kilt, a thread about why people should care about dressing traditionally has been moved to general kilt talk. In total I've had something like seven threads I started in this section to keep it vibrant moved so I'm at a loss as to what we could possibly discuss here that an argument couldn't be made to move elsewhere.

I would think that if I wanted advice on which accessories are worn traditionally and how they are worn, it should go here rather than in the accessorize section. I'm also not sure a jacket is really an accessory.

Even this thread will probably end up in forum issues or something. So mods, I want to respect the rules of the forum, but even by judging the threads in this sub-forum that have not been moved, I'm scratching my head.

Please advise some examples of things that could be discussed here so those of us who want to keep this sub-forum active can brainstorm topics that won't be moved.

I've noticed this too, Nathan, and I think it's a good question. It was particularly surprising when your Tradition and Change thread was moved out of the traditional sub-forum, where we're supposed to "discuss and see examples of how kilts can be worn to emulate a traditional style or fashion." :think::think::think:

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Originally Posted by Nathan

I've had several threads I posted about dressing traditionally moved from this thread to others. Threads about tweed kilt jackets have been moved to how to accessorize your kilt, a thread about why people should care about dressing traditionally has been moved to general kilt talk. In total I've had something like nine threads I started in this section to keep it vibrant moved so I'm at a loss as to what we could possibly discuss here that an argument couldn't be made to move elsewhere.

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I agree, especially the Tradition thread. Some respondents appeared to not realize where it was posted (Traditionally Made Kilts and How To Wear Them), and their responses moved the content off-topic after 30 interesting posts had already been made. I would rather see the mods direct the off-topic content to another area rather than move the thread and encourage broad, off-topic commentary by a couple of members.

For sure it's difficult, with so many potential crossover topics.

For example, taking only the first page of "general kilt talk" there's a thread about sporrans, a thread about feather bonnets, a thread about boots, and a thread about a jacket. All could potentially be moved to "accessories".

The term "accessories" means different things to different people. For whatever reason I consider the things that actually clothe the body, and usually made of woven or knit wool (hats, jackets, kilts, socks) to be "clothing" and the other things, usually leather or metal (belts, sporrans, kilt pins, cap badges) to be "accessories".

A kilt jacket, to me, cannot be regarded as an accessory because its equivalent Saxon thing is an inseparable part of the suit. A Highland "suit of clothes" (as it were) would consist of the kilt, jacket, and hose (which are an exposed essential element, not hidden like the socks worn with a Saxon suit). Indeed the visual impact of Highland Dress is divided into three somewhat equal thirds hose/kilt/jacket (covering the same space as the trousers and jacket of a Saxon suit). "Accessories" then might be everything else.

What I tend to post here are 1) things regarding vintage kilt photos and 2) things regarding Highland military garb, there being no "Highland military dress" forum (I sometimes wish there were).

Well I suppose trying to keep the boundaries between sections maintained is a constant headache for the moderators. Since there's so much overlap I don't think about it much, however one thread of mine was moved to a patently incorrect forum: a thread about the Cumbric language which was moved to the "Gaelic languages" forum. Putting aside the fact that "Gaelic languages" is itself an oxymoron, there are no grounds for putting a thread about a language which is not Gaelic into that forum (unless of course the forum is re-named). I correctly put my post in the "miscellaneous" forum, but it was moved.

It would be like having a thread about the Toyota Landcruiser moved into a forum called "The Jeep Wranglers".

Nathan,

I think this is well said/written.


John

I have noticed this as well, Nathan. I have also began less frequent visits to the site because the section I enjoy seems to be dying and all the interesting topics are moved elsewhere.

Admittedly, I am not a high volume contributor, but I DO come to this sub forum specifically because I enjoy the discussions had. It has become increasingly difficult to find the threads that interest me recently due to their being moved.

Nathan, I have also been surprised to see several threads on traditional highland dress get moved to other forums. While following the wonderful thread where you and Colin provided excellent examples of THCD, I was surprised to see us get slammed for our attitude toward our non-traditional kilt-wearing brethren. I used to view all forums, but now just look mainly at this one, assuming that this is where we are supposed to stay in order to not step on any non-traditional toes. So I share your concern and confusion that threads discussing THCD keep getting moved to other forums.

I'm glad you brought this up, Nathan. I have wondered the same thing. I admit that my main interest on this board is 'traditional kilt talk', and it seems to have been scattered to the proverbial winds of late. I may be missing some good topics because they're getting buried in subforums that I never open because they don't interest me.

As a relative newbie to XMarks, with a wide interest in various ways of wearing the kilt, I would like to comment on this thread.

There is a lot of crossover, so let's take a thread about jackets (as an example) that has been placed by the OP only in the Traditional subforum, but would actually apply to both Contemporary and Traditional (and let's not get into how those terms are defined!). There could be members who would miss it because they view themselves as being Contemporary and not Traditional, so don't look in that subforum. However, they would look in the Accessories Forum, and would see comments from those who pattern themselves in a Traditional ambience, and those who feel they are wearing the kilt in a Contemporary manner. That might lead them to explore the Traditional subforum more. The reverse would also be true for Traditionalists.

I think it behooves folks to use the search function (even with its limitations -- this is not Google, after all, and tag the threads). Part of the enjoyment of XMarks is finding new perspectives on the kilt and how to wear it. I have seen examples of personal styles that I really appreciated, and others that I felt worked for that person, but not for me. But it has been an opportunity to learn.

With all the crossover on topics, I don't envy the Moderators in trying to keep the forum readable. XMarks is populated by people from all over the world with different perspectives. The goal is to make the forum usable for all these people, not just a subset. So, sometimes where an OP posts a thread may not be where the Moderators think it should go for the access of the entire forum, and they move it. I am assuming that the OP gets some form of notification that the thread has been moved.... For someone who has been following the thread, wouldn't any new posts show up in New Posts, and from there it would be obvious that the thread has been moved? The reader who wants to follow the thread would then know to look there.

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Originally Posted by Terry1948

As a relative newbie to XMarks, with a wide interest in various ways of wearing the kilt, I would like to comment on this thread.

There is a lot of crossover, so let's take a thread about jackets (as an example) that has been placed by the OP only in the Traditional subforum, but would actually apply to both Contemporary and Traditional (and let's not get into how those terms are defined!). There could be members who would miss it because they view themselves as being Contemporary and not Traditional, so don't look in that subforum. However, they would look in the Accessories Forum, and would see comments from those who pattern themselves in a Traditional ambience, and those who feel they are wearing the kilt in a Contemporary manner. That might lead them to explore the Traditional subforum more. The reverse would also be true for Traditionalists.

I think it behooves folks to use the search function (even with its limitations -- this is not Google, after all, and tag the threads). Part of the enjoyment of XMarks is finding new perspectives on the kilt and how to wear it. I have seen examples of personal styles that I really appreciated, and others that I felt worked for that person, but not for me. But it has been an opportunity to learn.

With all the crossover on topics, I don't envy the Moderators in trying to keep the forum readable. XMarks is populated by people from all over the world with different perspectives. The goal is to make the forum usable for all these people, not just a subset. So, sometimes where an OP posts a thread may not be where the Moderators think it should go for the access of the entire forum, and they move it. I am assuming that the OP gets some form of notification that the thread has been moved.... For someone who has been following the thread, wouldn't any new posts show up in New Posts, and from there it would be obvious that the thread has been moved? The reader who wants to follow the thread would then know to look there.

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I'm going to have to disagree with this. People can explore whichever sub-forum they like, but each sub-forum serves a particular purpose.

The Traditional subforum exists for those who wish to discuss the finer points of how the kilt is worn in a traditional sense. (Following the 'Rules' as it were).
Some contemporary dressers find the discussion excruciating and knit-picking.

The Contemporary subforum exists for those who may wish to wear the kilt in a more 'modern' sense. Alternate jacket styles, scrunched down hose, unusual sporrans, etc.
Traditional dressers may find some of this... troubling :lol:.

To strip the traditional forum of everything BUT the kilt itself essentially destroys the subforum, as a kilt worn traditionally frequently DOES have a jacket (or jumper). Why take the discussion of
traditional jackets worn WITH traditional kilts OUT of the Traditional Sub-forum?

Just my $0.02, but I find the recent 'pruning' of the traditional forum has sucked much of the life and discussion out of XMarks, at least the parts I quite enjoyed.

:pith:

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For someone who has been following the thread, wouldn't any new posts show up in New Posts, and from there it would be obvious that the thread has been moved? The reader who wants to follow the thread would then know to look there.

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I'm assuming you're talking about the "what's new" tab. I don't use it. It makes me wade through a bunch of topics that I don't care about, which is precisely why I like to browse directly to the subforum that interests me in order to find topics I do care about. And for this reason, I am very grateful for the staff attempting to keep topics fairly well organised in the sub-forums to which they should belong. The only issue here is that there is some confusion on what exactly the traditional forum is supposed to be about, if topics about traditional kilt wear keep getting moved to other subforums.

To be fair, they usually do leave a marker to show that a thread has been moved, and it's easy to click on that link to follow it to the thread's new location.

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Originally Posted by artificer

I'm going to have to disagree with this. People can explore whichever sub-forum they like, but each sub-forum serves a particular purpose.

The Traditional subforum exists for those who wish to discuss the finer points of how the kilt is worn in a traditional sense. (Following the 'Rules' as it were).
Some contemporary dressers find the discussion excruciating and knit-picking.

The Contemporary subforum exists for those who may wish to wear the kilt in a more 'modern' sense. Alternate jacket styles, scrunched down hose, unusual sporrans, etc.
Traditional dressers may find some of this... troubling :lol:.

To strip the traditional forum of everything BUT the kilt itself essentially destroys the subforum, as a kilt worn traditionally frequently DOES have a jacket (or jumper). Why take the discussion of
traditional jackets worn WITH traditional kilts OUT of the Traditional Sub-forum?

Just my $0.02, but I find the recent 'pruning' of the traditional forum has sucked much of the life and discussion out of XMarks, at least the parts I quite enjoyed.

:pith:

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So, I admit to being a bit bemused. Why does it "suck the life and discussion out" by having to read about something in a subforum not dedicated to one specific perspective? I actually find going into different subforums adds to the life and discussion, but then I am also interested in seeing how different people view the wearing of the kilt.

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Originally Posted by Terry1948

So, I admit to being a bit bemused. Why does it "suck the life and discussion out" by having to read about something in a subforum not dedicated to one specific perspective? I actually find going into different subforums adds to the life and discussion, but then I am also interested in seeing how different people view the wearing of the kilt.

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It's not just about WHERE the conversation is read, although this pruning HAS vastly cut down the volume of threads as well as the traffic IN threads that I am interested in- "sucked the life and discussion out". Literally.
The traffic in the Traditional forum is at an all time low.

To be perfectly frank, if I want to discuss how a tweed jacket works with a particular outfit I don't need to hear "Wear what you want, there are no rules" eighteen times in a thread (a fairly Contemporary PoV).
I'd much rather hear from those who share a particular mindset, as those would be the opinions that I was looking for (Traditional ones).

Likewise, If I was discussing the finer points of rough and ready boots and hose for a concert I wouldn't be asking the question in the Traditional forum (where such a question might mostly net answers of "I'd never do that").

THAT is why I appreciate the ability to discuss various facets of kilting in their proper sub-forums. It's not about NOT getting different perspectives,
it's about asking the proper question in the proper place to get the proper answer from the proper people.

A jumble of opinions is what the "General" forums are for, and they do marvelously at it, but certain questions and topics belong in DEDICATED spaces.

:pith:

Edit: I should add that I am not an "Arch-Traditionalist", the weather here means that most of the time I'm wearing a Polo shirt and light or scrunched down hose with my kilt, and I've been known to wear a t-shirt with it as well.
I just appreciate being able to access set groups with their own particular points of view.

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To be perfectly frank, if I want to discuss how a tweed jacket works with a particular outfit I don't need to hear "Wear what you want, there are no rules" eighteen times in a thread (a fairly Contemporary PoV).
I'd much rather hear from those who share a particular mindset, as those would be the opinions that I was looking for (Traditional ones).

Likewise, If I was discussing the finer points of rough and ready boots and hose for a concert I wouldn't be asking the question in the Traditional forum (where such a question might mostly net answers of "I'd never do that").

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This. Exactly.

Posting a question about a tweed jacket is a great example. If one were to post it in the traditional subforum, he would be looking for input based on a traditional point of view. If he posted it in the accessories subforum, he would be looking for a more general opinion. Two very different intents, with the exact same question asked. The issue of where the question is asked is the important thing. But if all such questions are moved to the accessories forum, it defeats the poster's intent.

Nathan, are you asking for clarification on WHY posts are moved or are you advocating that the original poster's choice of forum be respected?

In the examples cited, is the move to another section the result of subsequent comments that hijack the original intent?

Personally I automatically hit the "NEW POSTS" button and skim through posts irrespective of forum to see what interests me. I only use the forum view when I'm shopping a particular vendor or looking for DIY help.

It might be helpful to do a survey on --

1) how many members go directly to the "Traditionally Made" forum?

2) how many members browse by "New Posts"?

Also, do a review the posts that were moved to see what topics appear to be problematic.

...this might give the moderators some data to ensure that whatever solution is considered actually meets the needs of members.

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Originally Posted by pbutts

Nathan, are you asking for clarification on WHY posts are moved or are you advocating that the original poster's choice of forum be respected?

In the examples cited, is the move to another section the result of subsequent comments that hijack the original intent?

Personally I automatically hit the "NEW POSTS" button and skim through posts irrespective of forum to see what interests me. I only use the forum view when I'm shopping a particular vendor or looking for DIY help.

It might be helpful to do a survey on --

1) how many members go directly to the "Traditionally Made" forum?

2) how many members browse by "New Posts"?

Also, do a review the posts that were moved to see what topics appear to be problematic.

...this might give the moderators some data to ensure that whatever solution is considered actually meets the needs of members.

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Interesting questions but really don't address my OP. Obviously there are subforums so different people can discuss what they want among likeminded people.

What IS ok for this sub-forum? What DOES actually belong here in terms of new content? What determines whether you are wearing the kilt traditionally if not the things you wear it with?

My jaundiced view is that those who decide have no interest in Traditional kilt wearing and, either by design or by mistake, they are killing the Traditional forum by moving posts which refer to anything other than traditional kilts- for example, my own moved thread on tartan jackets, which I posted here a few weeks ago. And yes, I know a jacket is not a kilt, but I agree with the posts above which noted that this forum draws traditional kilt wearers and traditional views, regardless of whether we ask " So, about those socks I wear with my traditional kilt..." or say "Should I wear my traditional kilt with these socks?" Of late, merely saying "Traditional Kilt" has not been enough- you have to refrain from mentioning anything else, too. I know that much thought has been expended on the forum titles, but I think the moving of threads is frustrating to the OP, not to mention disrespectful. When a month goes by without any posts at all, it is safe to assume that I am not the only one who feels stepped on.

My practice has been to check this forum first and occasionally to look in the General Kilt Talk forum, or maybe Advice. Sometimes I notice old friends from the THCD crowd in those other places. Lately, I just sigh and go on to other websites.

Nathan , I would have to agree with your views and others with similar viewpoints .

The name of the sub-forum is " Traditionally Made Kilts and How to Wear Them " .

The name of the sub-forum does imply discussing and depicting not only traditionally made kilts but also what to wear with them ... thus the part of the sub-forum name " and How to Wear Them " which would suggest the traditional elements worn with the traditional kilt .

If this sub-forum wasn't intended for such discussions , perhaps there should be a new sub-forum created and appropriately named .... which would pertain to Traditional Highland Civilian Dress .

It was always nice to know in the past , that if you want to read and view threads about traditional wear you could come to this sub-forum . ( not so much now )

Don't get me wrong here folks . In case some of you are reading this in the " What's New " section , this is not a discussion of traditional vs. contemporary ( many of us traditionalists like contemporary as well ) .

This is a discussion on " WHERE " to have conversations about overall traditional wear .

Cheers , Mike

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Originally Posted by MacLowlife

My jaundiced view is that those who decide have no interest in Traditional kilt wearing and, either by design or by mistake, they are killing the Traditional forum by moving posts which refer to anything other than traditional kilts- for example, my own moved thread on tartan jackets, which I posted here a few weeks ago. And yes, I know a jacket is not a kilt, but I agree with the posts above which noted that this forum draws traditional kilt wearers and traditional views, regardless of whether we ask " So, about those socks I wear with my traditional kilt..." or say "Should I wear my traditional kilt with these socks?" Of late, merely saying "Traditional Kilt" has not been enough- you have to refrain from mentioning anything else, too. I know that much thought has been expended on the forum titles, but I think the moving of threads is frustrating to the OP, not to mention disrespectful. When a month goes by without any posts at all, it is safe to assume that I am not the only one who feels stepped on.

My practice has been to check this forum first and occasionally to look in the General Kilt Talk forum, or maybe Advice. Sometimes I notice old friends from the THCD crowd in those other places. Lately, I just sigh and go on to other websites.

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I have to agree with this. I have been feeling as if the traditional sub-forum is somehow "on the outs" with the current "leadership", so to speak. As a result, it is being slowing choked out of the forum.

I come to the traditional sub-forum to have (or more accurately see) conversations about the overall wearing of kilt attire in a traditional manner. Primarily, because that is how I prefer to wear my own. Additionally, when I seek a new opinion, I decidedly go into the sub-forum(s) which provide differing thoughts. However, when I want to discuss something with like minded people, I do NOT wear my traditional outfit into a biker bar and expect to have an extended discussion about proper shoes and or hose to wear at a particular event. But if I DO desire that conversation, I too would like to avoid the "wear whatever you want, there are no rules" commentary that serves no purpose to aid the conversation that I seek.

I have been watching this thread and have held off responding until a few more of you have had a chance to comment. I am also reading all the comments from the Moderators.

What I think has been missed here is that the Style Forum and its three sub-forums are not fashion forums. There are currently no forum sections on X Marks that deal with different fashions, How you wear your kilt or what you wear with it should not be specific to one forum section.

In fact, having separate forum sub-sections based on fashion would be directly against part of our mission statement.
“This is a Kilt Forum. Our members come here to learn about, discuss and share a love for the kilt. This is not a Scottish specific forum nor is it a highland wear specific forum, just as it is not a modern wear specific forum. We keep our focus on the kilt. It is what brings us here and what makes this forum unique in the world.”

The word “Style” as used in the Style Forum means that the historical kilt is a distinctly different style of kilt from the traditional style kilt and both are different from a contemporary style kilt.
For example – I do not post in the traditional style kilt sub-section because I do not wear traditional Style kilts. Some have commented that I dress very traditionally but I have disagreed based on the definition of these forum subsections
Posting about a jacket in the Style Forum is therefore incorrect as the Style Forum Section is currently defined. As currently defined a jacket would be an accessory to a kilt so is most appropriately posted to the Accessories Section.
This is also why the definition of THCD was placed in the Member Written Articles and not in the Style Forum Section.

But I can understand where the confusion comes from. I have never felt that the three style sub-forums were the best way of doing things. The format only seems to foment a traditional vs historical vs contemporary feeling.

However, within the last few comments posted to this thread a couple of suggestion have been presented which may have given us the solution.
OC Richard posted - What I tend to post here are 1) things regarding vintage kilt photos and 2) things regarding Highland military garb, there being no "Highland military dress" forum (I sometimes wish there were).

First I need to explain something. I am not anti-traditional. It is simply that I do not like the way the acronym THCD is used here.
This acronym was invented by just a few members here. It is used only here, and by just a few members. It is not known or used anywhere else. No one outside this forum would know what it is supposed to mean.
And I would bet that no one outside of this forum would use it or agree with how it is used here.

And frankly I am getting just a little tired of the traditional vs modern tension that is caused by the way THCD is used. Lately X Marks has become known as a traditionalist stronghold. All of the other kilt forums have had comments to this effect that if you want to discuss modern kilt wear you should do so on another forum.


We all wear a kilt for different reasons. Some of us wear a kilt one way and some another. But we all do wear a kilt. This should unify us.
The only difference is the reason we wear a kilt. And this is where you, yourselves may have presented the solution.

I would be agreeable to changing the Style Forum Section based on the reason we wear a kilt not on how we choose to wear it or what we choose to wear with it.

Some of us wear a kilt as part of a uniform. Be it the military, or a pipeband. Uniforms are, by definition, uniform but each has distinctive differences. For example - some pipeband uniforms could be described as being based on tradition and some are very modern in their approach.

Some of us wear a kilt to make a non-conformist statement. Many Utilikilt wearers would agree with this. The entire publicity campaign of the Utilikilt Company is “Revolt against trouser tyranny”.

Some of us wear a kilt as daily street wear. Some may take a more traditional approach and some a more modern approach. Those who consider themselves traditionalists may post here on equal footing with those who consider themselves more modern.

I have created and just turned on one suggestion of how the Style Forum Section could be re-worked.
You can only see this suggestion. You can’t post to these sections.

Please notice that there is no THCD specific forum. And I strongly believe that creating one would drive more of a wedge between our members. If you prefer to dress traditionally you may post in any forum sub-section you feel like. This may actually open up the discussions more than they currently are.

Please remember that these forum sub-sections are merely a suggestion. My goal is to find some way of ending the conflict and finding a way that is based on the well-being of the entire forum and all its members. Please feel free to comment.

Steve, I have to disagree with some of what you are saying. In the "style" section for "traditional kilts" it states in part:
(discuss and see examples of how kilts can be worn to emulate a traditional style or fashion)

However in your above post you state, in part:Posting about a jacket in the Style Forum is therefore incorrect as the Style Forum Section is currently defined. As currently defined a jacket would be an accessory to a kilt so is most appropriately posted to the Accessories Section.

How can we discuss and see how a kilt is worn traditionally if all we can discuss and see is the kilt itself and nothing that goes with it? The rest of the outfit is what constitutes traditional or non-traditional aspects of the wearing of the kilt.

I have been following this thread with great interest. I have not had much to add but do have rather strong feelings to the whole thing. This is a great forum that I have learned a lot from. I have also gained much inspiration from it, and I hate to see it waste away as other fora have done. My only addition to the conversation deals with the following...

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And frankly I am getting just a little tired of the traditional vs modern tension that is caused by the way THCD is used. Lately X Marks has become known as a traditionalist stronghold.

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Having been on many fora dealing with a range of topics; the fora that tend to see the most tension by "opposing factions"/different styles/POVs/etc. tend to be where they are mixed without regard. This tends to lead people to interject their opinions without regard to the intent of the OP or the intent/desire of the OP. Most of this is caused by simple miscommunication/misunderstanding, not a dislike or disregard from the other person's opinion. Giving an area for the different POVs to ask and answer of each other, often helps alleviate the tensions caused by the miscommunication.

Cordially.

Isaac

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Originally Posted by Spartan Tartan

I have to agree with this. I have been feeling as if the traditional sub-forum is somehow "on the outs" with the current "leadership", so to speak. As a result, it is being slowing choked out of the forum.

I come to the traditional sub-forum to have (or more accurately see) conversations about the overall wearing of kilt attire in a traditional manner. Primarily, because that is how I prefer to wear my own. Additionally, when I seek a new opinion, I decidedly go into the sub-forum(s) which provide differing thoughts. However, when I want to discuss something with like minded people, I do NOT wear my traditional outfit into a biker bar and expect to have an extended discussion about proper shoes and or hose to wear at a particular event. But if I DO desire that conversation, I too would like to avoid the "wear whatever you want, there are no rules" commentary that serves no purpose to aid the conversation that I seek.

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Spot on, sir, especially your first sentence.

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I would be agreeable to changing the Style Forum Section based on the reason we wear a kilt not on how we choose to wear it or what we choose to wear with it.

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Respectfully, what about those of us who wear a kilt to be traditional, Steve? For the record, I don't wear my kilt as "daily street wear", though I certainly do not begrudge those who do; on the contrary. But there are many of us who wear Traditional Highland Civilian Dress for functions such as Burns Suppers, St. Andrew's Balls, Caledonian Society meetings, lodge "dos" and other assorted functions and those only. Sure, I may throw my kilt on because it's St. Columba's Day or the regimental day of the Calcutta Scottish regiment and all that, but there's usually a Scottish connection. But that's just me. ;-)

One of my co-workers and I frequently joke that given the trend in tattoos today, it is almost "non-conformist" to not have one. (and for the record, I have no issues with tattoos. I'm just not sure I want one.) I would daresay that those of us who do not wear a kilt to make a statement, save that of our pride in heritage an interest in tradition and custom are fast becoming non-conformist as well. I think this is what Chesterton had in mind when he said:

He is only a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of the conservative.

Again, as Alan H. so eloquently put it in another thread -- what others choose to wear is their business, and I respect that. All I ask is the same in return.

I agree with Todd. The reason that I wear the kilt is to participate in and perpetuate a rich culture that originated in the Highlands of Scotland and has since spread to the rest of Scotland, Britain, the Empire, and the world. I suspect that many, if not most, of the folks on XMarks resonate with that, as well. The kilt will always be tied to the culture of Highland Scotland. I choose to celebrate that, rather than negate it.

If being a "non-conformist" is enough to merit a subforum, surely the same should be true for "conformists". Please create a subforum for those who desire to wear the kilt in a traditional Highland manner.

Steve
Your contention that the jacket and all the other accessories belong in another sub forum is incongruous with what Jamie and I did in the 1 kilt 10 looks thread which, if I may say has helped countless kilt wearers figure out what to wear and how to wear it. The thing is that whether someone is wearing the kilt traditionally or not, the kilt is constant. Of course this does not take into effect Utilikilts, Freedom Kilts or the like, however my point is just because it is a traditionally made kilt that does not mean it needs to be worn in a traditional manner. Thus it is the accessories that make an outfit traditional or contemporary. If you agree with the above then it follows that posting about a traditional outfit in the traditional sub forum would be the right place. Here is what the sub forum says is appropriate to post as it stands:

This forum sub-section is for those interested in learning about and discussing Traditionally made kilts and to discuss and see examples of how kilts can be worn to emulate a traditional style or fashion

Having read that how can one possibly post about a traditional outfit without mentioning the jacket, the sporran, the hose, or the sgian dubh worn? The simple answer is one can not.

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Originally Posted by davidlpope

I agree with Todd. The reason that I wear the kilt is to participate in and perpetuate a rich culture that originated in the Highlands of Scotland and has since spread to the rest of Scotland, Britain, the Empire, and the world. I suspect that many, if not most, of the folks on XMarks resonate with that, as well. The kilt will always be tied to the culture of Highland Scotland. I choose to celebrate that, rather than negate it.

If being a "non-conformist" is enough to merit a subforum, surely the same should be true for "conformists". Please create a subforum for those who desire to wear the kilt in a traditional Highland manner.

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To add to David's post: part of the issue may be the term "non-conformist". That term today has a very positive connotation, while "conformist" is almost always has a pejorative one. Let's face it, it's "cool" to be non-conformist.

I just noted the new forum sections have a "special occasion" one and a "non-conformist" one. Isn't that the same thing as saying THCD is creating a divide among forum members? If you're not a non-conformist, but only wear a kilt for "special occasions", you're somehow not as "cool"?

Again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, especially to my contemporary kilt-wearers. I salute them for their own style. In the words of one of my favourite poems, "The Little Red God":

"[He] wears the clothes he likes to wear, never dreaming that people stare."

Ironically, I spent the weekend trying to find a pair of traditional-looking chukka boots online. I finally found a pair from Wolverine with the descriptor "Heritage". One of the customer reviews stated, "They look like pair of WWII USMC boots." That was enough to sell me. I march to my own drummer by seeking out garments in the style my grandfather would have worn, because they are "classic", "heritage" and dare I say it -- "traditional".

T.

I'm getting tired of the traditional versus non-traditional tension as well, but I don't think the solution is to castrate the traditionalists. This place has a reputation for being a traditionalist stronghold? It's also the busiest kilt related site on the internet. See a connection? I do. This is, among other things, a place where newbies to the kilt can learn how to not embarrass themselves at kilted functions. For that reason it is a great resource. If someone can't find out how to wear a traditional Highland garment in a traditional Highland way in any corner of this website, the utility of this forum will diminish as will its traffic.

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Originally Posted by davidlpope

I agree with Todd. The reason that I wear the kilt is to participate in and perpetuate a rich culture that originated in the Highlands of Scotland and has since spread to the rest of Scotland, Britain, the Empire, and the world. I suspect that many, if not most, of the folks on XMarks resonate with that, as well. The kilt will always be tied to the culture of Highland Scotland. I choose to celebrate that, rather than negate it.

If being a "non-conformist" is enough to merit a subforum, surely the same should be true for "conformists". Please create a subforum for those who desire to wear the kilt in a traditional Highland manner.

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Precisely, David.

For those of us whom are less tech savvy..... by moving all of these threads out of the "Traditional" thread, it makes it harder to find what we are looking for, when looking for Highland Kilt fashion before the 1960's.
At least it does for me.

All I can say is that I hope this ongoing controversy can be resolved soon, and in such a way that the TCHD boys [I use the term with affection] can be accommodated. It seems we are already starting to lose some of them, and I consider them to be a most vital part of this forum. I don`t know if I would dress that way, even If I could afford to, but I have always found their threads to be very entertaining and very informative, and I have certainly learned a lot from them.

Thank you to everyone who has responded so far. And so quickly.

Most of the responses so far seem to be proving that this idea you presented would appear to be a good one.

MacWilken writes "But there are many of us who wear Traditional Highland Civilian Dress for functions such as Burns Suppers, St. Andrew's Balls, Caledonian Society meetings, lodge "dos" and other assorted functions and those only."
That is very similar wording used in the section where you would feel most comfortable.
Formal balls to Burn's dinners. There are many occasions to which we wear our kilts.
Some of us wear a kilt only for special occasions such as a wedding.
If you have an occasion to wear a kilt then this is where you can post about it.

McMurdo writes "incongruous with what Jamie and I did in the 1 kilt 10 looks thread which" On the contrary. Each of the outfits is fully traditional, show your Heritage and suited to the reason you chose one outfit over another. Each of the 10 looks is described by what sort of event or activity it is most appropriate for.
#1 the equivalent to a pair of jeans. This is my hiking outfit
#2 Casual / Festival wear
#3 equivalent to a pair of Docker style pants for an afternoon BBQ or out to the pub with friends.
#4 Day wear
#5 This is the sort of outfit I would wear to a morning wedding, party, or church service.
#6 This outfit is one I would wear for a late afternoon or early evening event, such as an afternoon wedding.
#7 This is what I might wear out to dinner or an evening wedding or party.
#8 Some evening events are "formal optional"
#9 #9 Formal (Black Tie)
#10 #10 Formal (White tie)

Nathan writes "a place where newbies to the kilt can learn how to not embarrass themselves at kilted functions."
Yep, that fits very nicely too.

Kilted Cole writes "Highland Kilt fashion before the 1960's."
"You wear a kilt as part of a costume or vintage outfit" give one place to post and find all you pre-'60's examples.

Costume, no. I was using "before the 1960's" as an example of what "I" consider to be non contemporary (not that there is anything wrong with wearing the kilt in contemporary ways) but I would be wearing saxon clothing from the same time periods were I not of Highland ancestry. Its just the style that I find myself comfortable in.
And I fear your missing my point. For myself, I find all these "sub forums" to be confusing. I'm looking for this, and now I have to do some serious searching on here, rather than click on the THCD button or link, and then make my selection from there.

Some have said that they feel that without a dedicated THCD section the forum will suffer.

This is contrary to the numbers and facts. X Marks has had almost 19,000 people join the forum. Many leave very soon after joining because they cannot find anywhere to post about how they do, or want, to wear the kilt.

I hear often from this new members that they are made to feel unwelcome due to a few who tout the traditional way.
I am honestly try to find a way for all these others to join us and feel welcome.

I honestly feel this will make the forum stronger.

Ah, Kilted Cole, but there never was a "THCD button or link".

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Most of the responses so far seem to be proving that this idea you presented would appear to be a good one.

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Respectfully, Steve -- it doesn't. You have replaced "traditionalist" with "non-conformist" in what appears to be a special status. I personally believe that a person who dresses in THCD is a non-conformist of sorts in that they chose to wear classic, traditional attire instead of contemporary fashion. You expressed your concern that THCD was creating some sort of caste system; isn't giving the "non-conformists" their own unique section the exact same thing without one for "traditionalists" to balance it out?

I don't see this as a good idea at all, but rather creating the very thing it supposed to be fixing. I remember here years ago when the term "Weekend Wallace" was bantered about by those daily kilt-wearers against those who wore their kilts for special occasions. Anyone else remember that?

Steve,

If there was a clearly labeled "Traditionalist" sub-forum your concerns would vanish into the ether. Those posting in the Traditional sub-forum would know that the discussion there was premised on a traditional understanding of how to wear the kilt and could enjoy the discussion of arcane matters that most of the world has no interest in. The traditionalists could confine themselves to this sub-forum and wouldn't "scare off", with their undesired viewpoints, any of these new members that you keep referencing. Folks like Alan could steer clear of this sub-forum and not have their feathers ruffled.

Why are you so unwilling to grant this simple request?

David

" Folks like Alan could steer clear of this sub-forum and not have their feathers ruffled."

If only, David, the reverse were true too? http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/s...9&goto=newpost

The last time you proposed tampering with the subforums, the traditionalists of this forum gave constructive suggestions about what they would like to see. You ignored that input and closed the thread. Now you're proposing another arrangement that would also make it difficult to discuss what we really want to.

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...bership-85447/

We want to continue to have a place on this forum to discuss the finer points of Traditional Highland attire from a Traditional Highland perspective. You seem to want to bend into logical contortions to stop that from happening and that is very frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Steve Ashton

" Folks like Alan could steer clear of this sub-forum and not have their feathers ruffled."

If only, David, the reverse were true too? http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/s...9&goto=newpost

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Alan posted that thread in the "kilt advice" sub-forum, not in the contemporary sub-forum. Is there an unspoken rule that everyone, save Traditionalists, are allowed to express their viewpoint when it comes to "kilt advice"? Does his advocacy of a particular viewpoint pre-empt other views?

My comments were respectful and appropriate. I'm amazed that they were interpreted as giving offense.

How about forums labelled thusly:

Traditional - to discuss anything related to wearing of the kilt in a traditional manner

Contemporary - to discuss anything relatedto wearing of the kilt in a contemporary manner