box pleat call for help

[Erisianmonkey]

So I'm getting around to doing some work on the Irish national. Awhile back I dismantled my SWK Thrifty, so that I could make it fit better. I test pleated knife pleating, and found I could get the reverse and a deep pleat into it only by making the rest of the pleats shallower, and going with a larger reveal. I didn't like it much.

I've decided that I want to go ahead and make it into a box pleat. I tested it, and to pleat to the sett, I end up with 6 1/2" inches between pleats on the outside, and it looks bad. I need some guidance on how to make smaller pleats, while still getting it pleated to the sett- but not so small that I might as well not have pleats at all. I've gone through the search function here, but I'm still stumped.

Could someone come to the rescue here?

[The Wizard of BC]

Measure your Sett size and divide by 3. This will give you the Pleat width if pleating to the Stripe. To pleat to the Sett you will have to decide if you want your In Pleats to overlap or not touch at all.
This is because when Pleating the to Sett you find your repeat and add or subtract one pleat reveal.

This is why so few kilts are Box-Pleated to the Sett. The large Pleat reveal causes you to use up fabric at a prodigious rate and have the In Pleats overlapping similar to Knife Pleats. Or you end up with the In Pleats so shallow as to decrease the swish to nothing and cause the Pleats to gape open in an unsightly manner.

[Erisianmonkey]

Hmmm.... I guess I'm pleating to the stripe then. I think I may go for the thin center orange. But I'm not sure yet.

Thanks Steve.

[MacWage]

Measure your Sett size and divide by 3. This will give you the Pleat width if pleating to the Stripe. To pleat to the Sett you will have to decide if you want your In Pleats to overlap or not touch at all.
This is because when Pleating the to Sett you find your repeat and add or subtract one pleat reveal.

This is why so few kilts are Box-Pleated to the Sett. The large Pleat reveal causes you to use up fabric at a prodigious rate and have the In Pleats overlapping similar to Knife Pleats. Or you end up with the In Pleats so shallow as to decrease the swish to nothing and cause the Pleats to gape open in an unsightly manner.

BULL!

The difference between pleating to sett and to stripe on a box-pleat is SIMPLY the size of each pleat. The ACTUAL material is the SAME!
I have a USA Bicentennial and MacNeil box pleat to set and several to stripe. They BOTH use 4 yards of material (44 inch hip measurement).
They are BOTH 3 layers deep (outer facing, inner facing, and the "cross" piece between them-the front underpleat).
ALL that is different is the SIZE of that box.
For example, 6 inch sett/full repeat:
2 inch wide facing to stripe, for 24 inches of pleating makes 12 pleats and uses 72 inches of material (12 pleats times 6 inches per pleat).
3 inch wide facing to sett (using 1/2 of total repeat for the facing), for 8 pleats and uses 72 inches (8 pleats times 9 inches used per pleat).

I have hand sewn 8 worsted wool box pleats (and played with several using crappier wool):
Caledonia (13 oz to stripe)
X Marks (13 oz to stripe)
Wallace (16 oz to stripe)
Carolina (16 oz to stripe)
MacNeil (16 oz to sett)
USA Bicentennial (16 oz to sett)
Gordon (18 oz to stripe for Turpin)
Wilson Ancient (16 oz to stripe-> actually to HALF repeat, as it is to the red/orange on green)

ALL use 4 yards!

Still to make:
Gordon (18 oz to stripe)
X Marks (16 oz to stripe)
BOTK (13 oz to stripe)
Wilson's Carolina to ? (have to see the material first)
Tweed to ?
Plus a few more


That is NOT including my first box pleat, which is seen in the 2006 Greenville Games picts.

[Tartan Hiker]

BULL!

So that's why you haven't been around here lately.

[MacWage]

So that's why you haven't been around here lately.

Well,
Since hockey season started, most of my forum time has been on Thrasher forums and on the BOTK.
The rest is work, family (have 2 small kids), a few "fun" projects, minor car repairs, and some kilt-related projects (balmorals, kilts, and the like).
I have checked in every now and then, but not posted much.

[Erisianmonkey]

So that's why you haven't been around here lately.

Well,
Since hockey season started, most of my forum time has been on Thrasher forums and on the BOTK.
The rest is work, family (have 2 small kids), a few "fun" projects, minor car repairs, and some kilt-related projects (balmorals, kilts, and the like).
I have checked in every now and then, but not posted much.

Please don't hijack this thread

I've looked at it, and dividing by three seems to make the depth of the pleats too small, if you know what I mean. Hmmmmm. A chap illustration: >_< If you consider the underscore as the facing, and the wakas as what I'm calling pleats, for the divide by three, my pleats end up being only 1 1/16th of an inch deep. (The math: 6.5" sett, means that dividing by three gets me 2.16-In my head I figure that the closest is to go ahead and use 2 1/8 on my tape. That means that half of that is 1 1/16.) That just seems way too bloody shallow to me. If, on the other hand, I go from outer black to outer black, I get a respectable pleat depth, but they seem to overlap in the middle. I'll get it figured, but I am starting to think this will be the only box pleated kilt I'll ever make. Any other hints would be greatly appreciated.

[The Wizard of BC]

Oh yea Wages, I make one little mistake, I make a fool of myself, I show the entire world that I am tired and brain dead and you just jump all over me.

Now, you teach me. Is there a formula for determining Box-Pleat width for pleating to the Stripe. I've gotten thru my head that the amount of fabric is exactly the same. I've gotten past past the overlapping necessary. But it's late and I haven't had any where near enough coffee to come up with the formula.
I know it's there, just beyond my grasp.

Oh no, I'm losing my math ability and turning into Behavioral Psychologist!!

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Ok guys, here's the secret. To make a usual box pleated kilt to the stripe, with "true" box pleats (little to no overlap on the inside), you'll want to take your sett size and divide by 3, as Steve said, and try to keep your pleat width to as close to that measurement as possible.

In other words, a tartan with a 9" repeat will have 3" pleats. A tartan with a 7" repeat will have 2.25" wide pleats, etc. I find that 2" is the smallest that works well with a true box pleat, and even that is pushing it at times.

To pleat to sett, you'll want to multiply the sett size by 1.5, and then divide by 3 to find your pleat width. Then you will be pleating to alternate pivots. So if you have a tartan that has a 6" repeat, you treat that as if it is a 9" repeat, and make the pleats 3" wide, pleating to alternate stripe. The end effect is pleating to the sett.

The reason that I don't pleat a lot of my box pleated kilts to the sett is twofold. First, I try to model them as much as I can on traditional box pleated kilts from the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, and pleating to the sett didn't become the fashion until the end of the nineteenth century. But there is also a proactical reason. Unless you are dealing with a smallish sett to begin with, this method tends to create very large pleats.

For example, though my above example worked out well with a 6" repeat, what if we had a tartan with a 9" repeat? That would give us pleats of 4.5" which is far too wide (unless possibly you are a very large man). On the other hand, if you have a tartan with an exceptionally large repeat, like 14" (I've seen it), you can do the same thing by divinding the tartan in half in order to pleat to alternate pivots.

So I tend to pleat to the sett on box pleated kilts only when I'm dealing with a rather small tartan repeat where pleating to the stripe would give me pleats of 2" or less, as a way to increase the pleat size, and consequently the pleat depth.

Aye,
Matt

[Ronusan]

It sounds like these all assume every pleat (for to-the-sett) will look identical on box-pleat. Is it possible to break up certain patterns over 2 or more pleats, like knife-pleating does, or is that why a large internal overlap of the hidden portion is required? I wish this thread had come up 2 or 3 weeks ago before I started my first box pleated kilt! These formulas are great!