Saltire kilt's tartan??

[OC Richard]

Now before somebody says "why didn't you do a search?" I will say that I just did one, and read through the 20 pages going back to 2007 which came up when I searched the word "saltire" (most having to do with a certain airship...)

I suppose everyone has seen these "saltire kilts". The Scots singer Alex Beaton usually performed in one, and when I've piped at weddings which had a Scottish contingent (Scots who flew over for the wedding) there's always at least one of these kilts to be seen, indicating that they're popular in Scotland:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/SALE-OFFER-M...item20c22a5731

I have some questions

1) how is the saltire effect on the pleats done?

2) what is the actual tartan of these kilts? What is it called? Who designed it and who weaves it?

3) would it be possible to have a kilt made of this tartan, but without the saltire effect on the pleats?

Thanks! Richard

[The Wizard of BC]

The Tartan is named Saltire and is registered with the STA as ITI #6152.

It was designed by Claire Donaldson of House of Edgar. HOE hold a copyright on this Tartan and are the only weavers. They do not normally sell to this fabric to the public.

The design is actually quite ingenious. Along each Sett of the Tartan used for the back of the kilt there is a white bar woven in. On each set the white bar is in a different position. As you pleat the kilt the cross appears.

It could be pleated hiding the white bar inside a pleat and the cross would not show.

HOE also weave what they call their Rampant Lion Tartan. I have some shots of a kilt in this Tartan on my shop computer but do not seem to have ever uploaded them to photobucket.

If someone else does not have pics of the actual Saltire Tartan fabric I'll upload the pics I have of the Rampant Lion Tartan and post them for you.

[ForresterModern]

I have often wondered the same thing myself, and after close review of the images of them that I can find have discerned a few things:

The tartan pattern exhibited on the front apron CANNOT be used in any way to make the Saltire pattern on the pleats, therefore it must be some other special pattern weave for the pleated portions that makes the saltire possible. This conclusion comes from a couple observations, first that the saltire pattern is pleated to what appears to be a medium grey stripe over the fell and down the pleats, a stripe that does not occur on the front apron anywhere. Second, if you look at each individual pleat's contribution to the saltire pattern, most have ANGLED top and bottom margins to the white saltire segments ( one even has a pair of chevrons with one inverted at the actually crossing centrally), with several at either side of the pattern having flat tops but no further white extending above them in the same stripe. This makes no sense from looking at it as a standard tartan pattern, as these configurations are NOT possible with symmetric or even asymmetric woven tartans. So the material making up the pleated sections has to be of a different pattern than the aprons.

This should also apply to the other variations of this "pleated pattern" kilt such as the rampant lion in grey and red, and I believe there is also an english specific color and pattern scheme as well.

Okay, does my logic make sense to anybody but me? I personally would love to see one of these kilts deconstructed to see the actual pattern fabric used for the pleats, and assume that I would see a fabric joint on each side where the standard tartan aprons were joined, probably in a deep or reverse pleat.

jeff

Edit: Obviously Steve and I were writing our posts simultaneously and he pushed his send button before me.

[ForresterModern]

STA ITI#6152 "Saltire" from the STA website:



If you compare this to the picture from the ebay auction you can clearly see that the above "Saltire" tartan is NOT the same as that used on the apron of the kilt shown:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SALE-OFFER-M...item20c22a5731

(Sorry I cannot figure out how to steal the apron photo from the ebay web page directly)

So it still does not make sense to me in this particular kilt. Again STA 6152 should NOT be able to make the angled ends to the white saltire flag segments evident in this ebay kilt, although I have no doubt that if STA 6152 were pleated correctly it could approximate the saltire pattern, just with squared off tops and bottoms to each white segment of the saltire in each pleat.

Is my thinking somehow wrong?

jeff

[ForresterModern]

Here is a couple of pleat side shots that shows a couple open pleats, demonstrating that the Saltire white segments are somehow sewn into the tartan background rather than just being a naturally occuring part of a standard symmetric tartan:




Looks like even Hamish has or had one:



Maybe we could ask him to spread out the pleats and show us what magic is making the saltire pattern.



Interestingly some appear to be made with what appears to be the HoE Rampant Lion tartan as their front apron rather than just the plain tartan as above and:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Scottish-K...-/190536065164

Interestingly if you look at the last posted picture, with the kilt laid out showing both aprons and pleats, the "grey" or mid-white stripe that the pleats seem to be centered on does not really match any stripe in the apron tartan, which has white stripes flanked by narrow grey or mid-white thin stripes, clearly not the same thickness as those in the fell of the pleated portions. My conclusion is that the pleated section is a specially woven fabric designed to specifically yield the saltire pattern when pleated to that grey or mid white stripe, then attached to different more standard pattern tartan or the rampant lion tartan sections of fabric for the aprons.

Unfortunately, despite an exhaustive photo search for "saltire kilt" I find no pictures of any saltire kilts made with the STA ITI#6152 tartan pattern.

jeff

[kiltedwolfman]

The Rampant Lion front
[IMG][/IMG]
The pleats
[IMG][/IMG]

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Jeff,

Steve explained it pretty well. The "saltire" design itself is not a part of the tartan. When the cloth is woven there are extra bands of white woven in at different positions along the sett of the tartan, in such as way as that when the kilt is pleated, the saltire design appears. These white bands are not included in the portion of the cloth that goes into the making of the kilt.

In other words the cloth is woven specifically with making this kind of kilt in mind. You would not be able to take the same cloth and make drapes, or a dinner jacket, or anything else from it, because you'd have all these random looking white bars all across the tartan.

Only they are not random. They are specifically woven in positions so that when you pleat it to make a kilt the saltire design is created.

[ForresterModern]

The Rampant Lion front
[IMG][/IMG]
The pleats
[IMG][/IMG]

Hey kiltedwolfman, if you get a few spare minutes can you shoot a few pictures of the pleated portions where the rampant lion is with several of the pleats splayed open so we can actually see at least a section of the fabric that includes the hidden parts of the pleats as well as the show parts of the pleats that make up the rampant lion pattern. thanks.

jeff

[ForresterModern]

Jeff,

Steve explained it pretty well. The "saltire" design itself is not a part of the tartan. When the cloth is woven there are extra bands of white woven in at different positions along the sett of the tartan, in such as way as that when the kilt is pleated, the saltire design appears. These white bands are not included in the portion of the cloth that goes into the making of the kilt.

In other words the cloth is woven specifically with making this kind of kilt in mind. You would not be able to take the same cloth and make drapes, or a dinner jacket, or anything else from it, because you'd have all these random looking white bars all across the tartan.

Only they are not random. They are specifically woven in positions so that when you pleat it to make a kilt the saltire design is created.

Matt

I am not trying to be argumentative, as I think we are all saying the same thing, that the pleated portion of the kilt is a specially woven piece of fabric with the bars placed so that when pleated to that stripe the saltire is formed on the back of the kilt. My difference is that Steve attributes it to STA ITI#6152, the "Saltire" sett tartan which was specifically designed to be able to accomplish something similar when the kilt is pleated "just so", which I believe it could accomplish. I just do not believe that what we are seeing here in the demo'd kilts is attributable to simply pleating a section of that "Saltire" tartan, especially since none of the pictures of the aprons for these kilts match the tartan pattern picture I posted in post #4 of STA ITI#6152 taken directly from the STA website and again below. #6152 clearly has paired lighter stripes making both small and large boxes and rectangles in the tartan pattern, while the tartan shown in the aprons of these photo's kilts have a single white stripe making only one size squares. So IMHO these kilts are not made from STA ITI#6152, despite it having been designed to do something similar to what these specially made kilts are doing in forming a saltire on the pleats. I would actually like to see the #6152 pleated to do the same thing and put them side by side with one of the pictured kilts to see the differences, which I think would then be obvious. But despite my search I have not found any 6152 kilt pictures on the web as yet.

STA ITI #6152 from Scotweb's tartan finder:


Photo of apron from one of the sites selling the "Saltire" kilts:


Clearly a different tartan IMHO, and that is why I said I agreed with both you and Steve EXCEPT for the fact that these kilts as shown and being sold are NOT being made out of the 6152 "Saltire" tartan, but rather a specific pattern of fabric designed and woven to make this specific pattern when pleated to that specific stripe. I would still like to see a "saltire" kilt made from the 6152 tartan to see how it would compare, as I think it might be more attractive personally, although it would not likely show the saltire pattern to the same obvious degree of detail, and certainly would not have the angled ends to the white segments making up the saltire as these kilts have.

Respectfully

jeff

[Tony]

Jeff, I think you may be misreading Steves post. He specifically states " Along each Sett of the Tartan used for the back of the kilt there is a white bar woven in" which is pretty much the same as what Matt expanded on.