Prince Charlie - Lapels

[Tenmiles]

Quick question, while it occurs to me:

I've seen some Prince Charlies sold with satin (or silk) lined lapels,
while others seem to be faced with the same material as the rest of the coat exterior.

Is one more conventional (or "proper") than the other?
I know the satin lapels are common for American Tuxedos, but I seem to think I have observed this kind of lapel facing more on the "budget" PCs than on the more expensive ones.

If or when I lay down several hundred dollars for a formal dress coat, I should like to do my best for a "best possible" coat, and not one which looks 'chintzy'.

Advice? Wisdom? Experience? Am I over-thinking it?

[HuDonald]

While I'm no expert, I've always associated the PC with tuxedo. So, to me, the satin lapel seems to be at home because they are supposedly equivalent dress levels.

I would not want an Argyll jacket with a satin lapel, but would also not want a "tux" to not have one.
So to me, the satin lapel seems well placed on a PC. My custom tailored PC has satin lapels, and that's what I wore at my own wedding.

[Livonian]

Lapels for either semi-formal (black tie) or formal (white tie) coats should indeed be faced with either satin (which is shiny and seen as chintzy by some) or grosgrain (which is a bit more subdued, and preferred by some).

You may be seeing not un-faced PC's, but grosgrain-faced PC's... best to ask the manufacturer.

[MacCathmhaoil]

Can't imaging why one would purchase a PC without the lapels faced in either satin or similar material. I have toyed with the idea of having an Argyle jacket made with satin lapels for black tie, I'm not a fan of the PC and I have doublets for more formal events.

[HuDonald]

And as with any type of clothing, how well something is physically put together and how well it fits the person has a lot to do with whether it looks "chintzy". Two garments can use the exact same materials, but under different tailors or designers, have dramatically different outcomes.

[Livonian]

You are indeed right, however I was simply passing along an observation from comments made by others. I personally don't care if my lapels are satin or grosgrain, so long as they are attached to a good coat being worn alongside good friends.

That said, in some circles, such things are taken quite a bit more seriously... some, myself included, may say too seriously. I certainly don't advocate slovenliness and do, in fact, take pride in my appearance, but there is a common-sense limit to that, and in my opinion splitting hairs over satin vs grosgrain is on the far side of that limit.

[Taskr]

For what it's worth, my PC-type (a Stewart-cut jacket re-purposed but without the short tails) is 'satin' lapel faced. The argylle is not, and even though it can be brought up to black tie - and it will- for the 'truly formal' I would be inclined for the satin lapelled jacket. That might well be due to our commonly seeing tuxedos, but then that's what is common as the style. Seems ok to me.

[OC Richard]

Putting aside whether or not the Prince Charlie coatee is or is not an equivalent to a form of Saxon dress, I'll point out that from the earliest appearances of the PC I can find, Highland Dress catalogues from the 1920s and 1930s, it always had shiny lapels:



Here the lapels look the same as the rest of the jacket, but silk facings (which include the lower lapels) are specified. Note that in both the above and below illustrations the PCs are worn with lace jabots and non-matching waistcoats, a rather more ornate look to our modern black waistcoats and ties. Note also the opinion commonly stated in these early catalogues that the PC was most suitable for young men. Interesting how the illustration below doesn't show PCs in black, our now-standard colour.



This early catalogue shows the PC more as we wear it today. I believe this catalogue to be from the 1920s.

[Tenmiles]

Thanks, everyone! It's clear that I had simply not been paying attention, and supposed an entirely misplaced notion.

OCR, I notice that in each illustration, the non-matching waistcoat does match the kilt in color.
I wonder if that suggests a 'convention', or if there are examples of the waistcoat matching neither.

[OC Richard]

Yes indeed, a number of those old catalogues mention red waistcoats, evidently the most common colour besides black.

Also enduringly popular are buff and yellow.

Buff goes at least back to the 18th century, when some British regiments wore red coats with buff facings, and buff waistcoats and knee-breeches too.

I think all of these colours were popular regardless of the tartan. In The Highlanders Of Scotland there are 41 waistcoats visible, as follows:

tartan, matching kilt 14
selfcoloured, matching jacket 13
red 10
buff/off-white 3
brown 1
charcoal 1

HoS tartan and red waistcoats



A red waistcoat worn with a blue/green tartan and buff doublet



A buff waistcoat