A Humble Suggestion for the Staff Concerning the Rules

[KD Burke]

It strikes me that there has been much recent, and frequently labored, discussion of the rules. Please understand that I have no desire to inflame any passions of any sort. But a thought struck me earlier today...

The rule on advertising states, in part:

"Any member of the forum who produces a kilt or kilt related product and who wishes to advertise on the forum will be directed to our advertising plan for details of our ad space and rates.

No other advertising will be allowed with the exceptions as listed in this policy.

The DIY Section is intended as a place to share ideas and accomplishments of items designed for personal use. It is not intended to be a "show room" for new products being introduced by any commercial enterprise."

This adequately explains the staus of commercial enterprises, and of DIYers. However I feel there is a grey area, in between these which must be addressed. I speak of the many artisans who make items on a limited scale as a hobby or sideline. These folks produce unusual, artistic, and often unique items which are not carried by retailers. Many do not advertise at all because the "business" is marginal or a start-up.

I feel that there should be some means for amateur carvers, leather workers, metalsmiths, tailors, etc. to make the membership of the forum aware of their artistry.

I haven't an artistic bone in my body, but I revel in the craftmanship demonstrated by many of our members. I would certainly like to encourage these artisans to continue their work in any way possible; however I fear that the current rule prohibits low-volume, low-profit ventures from gaining exposure.

[Hothir Ethelnor]

"X Marks Hobbyist"
These are Member Public Profile Ads

Hobbyists will required to be active member of the forum.

This is a cost effective way for hobbyists and start-up Companies to get their name on the web.

Hobbyist ads may have a title such as "Hobbyist Kiltmaker" under their username on all posts and in their user profile.

Hobbyists may have a non-linking company name in their member signature block.

This is for those who fit your hobbyist mold. I however have not been able to get a reply on rates and if I would be allowed to advertise as a hobbyist.

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...ication-57885/

[Steve Ashton]

We have included an advertising category for just that sort of business. It is called the "Hobbyist" category.

As a Hobbyist you would be able to post an embedded link to your website in the signature block of your profile. If a hobbyist does not have a website, and many cannot yet afford that, they can post their company name and contact information.
Hobbyists would also have a title of hobbyist under your user name in all posts they make.

I think you can understand that we must put some limits on the definition of Hobbyist.

We only charge a very minimal fee for advertising as a hobbyist. But we must charge something otherwise everyone would instantly become a hobbyist and everyone would be free to advertise anything and everything.

Until we have more experience with the new category we will have to take each request for hobbyist ads on a one-at-a-time basis. As soon as we can adequately define hobbyist we will post that definition for all members. Until that time as a working definition we are using this;

"A hobbyist is one who produces or makes a product for the love of doing it. They are not trying to run a business or make a profit from their passion. A Hobbyist makes products on a one-of-a-kind basis or very limited runs of a product. A Hobbyist does not offer bulk or volume sales or offer products made by someone else."

A classic example of a Hobbyist is Big Mikey who we hope will offer his Hose Toppers to our members. Mikey makes his Hose Toppers in his living room as he is watching TV because it relaxes him to do so. He has not yet made the decision to attempt to make a living out of knitting his Hose Toppers.

[Tobus]

A hobbyist is one who produces or makes a product for the love of doing it. They are not trying to run a business or make a profit from their passion.

So even though it costs money to pay for being listed as a "hobbyist", the person is not allowed to make profit from it? Or, more to the point, if they do make a profit from it (not making a living, but a small profit to make it worth their while), will their "hobbyist" status be yanked?

[Steve Ashton]

As much as I hate to quote wikipedia here is how they define Hobbyist.

A hobby is an activity or interest that is undertaken for pleasure or relaxation, often in one's spare time.
Hobbies are practiced for interest and enjoyment, rather than financial reward. Examples include collecting, creative and artistic pursuits, making, tinkering, sports and adult education. Engaging in a hobby can lead to acquiring substantial skill, knowledge and experience. However, personal fulfillment is the aim.
What are hobbies for some people are professions for others: a chef may enjoy playing computer games as a hobby, while a professional game tester might enjoy cooking. Generally speaking, the person who does something for fun, not remuneration, is called an amateur (or hobbyist), as distinct from a professional.
An important determinant of what is considered a hobby, as distinct from a profession (beyond the lack of remuneration), is probably how easy it is to make a living at the activity. Almost no one can make a living at cigarette card or stamp collecting, but many people find it enjoyable; so it is commonly regarded as a hobby.

So the distinction is not whether or not you make any profit (and remember that profit is defined as money remaining after expenses are paid out and supplies paid for. Profit is not the same as payment for a product. ) at selling your product. The distinction is "Can someone, or is someone attempting to, make a living from the making and selling of their product?".

[bricelythgoe]

Never mind! I need to look closer at your answers.

[ali8780]

So even though it costs money to pay for being listed as a "hobbyist", the person is not allowed to make profit from it? Or, more to the point, if they do make a profit from it (not making a living, but a small profit to make it worth their while), will their "hobbyist" status be yanked?

It's not that they aren't allowed to make a profit, it's that they likely won't. As someone who loves to make things of all sorts, I'm all too familiar with the fact that profit on handmade goods is --for all intents and purposes-- nonexistent.

It's even hard to make a profit on handmade goods when you have a business license and are able to purchase raw goods wholesale.

Such is the way of our mass produced society.

[Tobus]

The distinction is "Can someone, or is someone attempting to, make a living from the making and selling of their product?".

Perfect. Thanks, Steve.

[Redshank]

Mr Ashton you quite clearly state in the "How do I become an Advertiser on X Marks" section that the hobbyist tag is to include start up business also

I quote "
"X Marks Hobbyist"
These are Member Public Profile Ads
Hobbyists will required to be active member of the forum.
This is a cost effective way for hobbyists and start-up Companies to get their name on the web.
Hobbyist ads may have a title such as "Hobbyist Kiltmaker" under their username on all posts and in their user profile.
Hobbyists may have a non-linking company name in their member signature block."

Are you now changing the goalposts and thus not giving a chance to the small start up business owners who cannot afford or justify the greater rates of advertising ?

[Dixiecat]

As a highland dancer who can sew, I've made a few costumes as favours for friends. While I don't run a business and I don't sew for others more than I can help, I do make sure I make a profit on all the things I make for them. I justify this because I am using my machines/appliances during the making of said costume, and I am using my considerable sewing knowledge and experience in making a costume that is better than 'home made'. Because of this, I reason that I deserve at least minimum wage for the time I spend at the job, and my 'friends' learn not to take advantage of me (believe me, I've had some doozies before I started charging for my time). I don't however, charge more than the actual cost of materials. In the end, I get a little money and they get a good quality costume for less than retail.

Because of the way I deal with this, would this classify me as a 'hobbyist' or a business?