The fundamental issue of going mainstream.. $$ and quality

[Alan H]

Just to put the whole recent topic in a different light, I thought I'd make a new post.

I see much grousing on the forum board about those cheap, shoddy imitation "kilt" things being hocked for $40-$50. They're awful, goes the line. Lip Service kilts...oh, we rant about 'em. Pieces of junk, and the models aren't even wearing 'em right and so on.

Ten posts down we have discussion on how to bring the "kilt" mainstream.

Ladies and gentlemen, I can go down to Mervy's and buy a pair of Levi Strauss blue jeans (which are made in Indonesia, BTW) for $26. I can buy a pair of Dockers (also made in Indonesia by the company that owns Levi's) for $29. It costs me, or anybody else, less than thirty bucks to put a decently constructed, well-accepted garment about my loins that I can wear anywhere I want.

If I go to a custom Italian men's shop or even just the Macy's Menswear or Nordstroms I can buy myself one damn fine pair of tailored wool slacks, high quality enough to wear on my wedding day and will last me for years, for what it costs to buy the least expensive Bear Kilt.

Guys, you can't have it both ways. If a kilt costs hundred of dollars, then it'll never be daywear-mainstream. Regular guys can't and won't spend hundreds of dollars on everyday clothes. Your regular guy CAN spend forty bucks on a kilt to wear "around"...but not three hundred. Yet we holler in disgust when someone markets a "kilt" that is actually priced somewhere near what a normal person would actually pay for something they'd wear every day.

The only way to get the kilt to go mainstream is to get the price down to about $40 or less. How on earth can you make something really high-quality in the USA or Canada or the UK for $40? It can't be done, not at the price of basic labour today. Certainly everyone here is behind the idea of making a living wage for your work, huh? OK, then the only way to make a kilt that is priced for the mainstream is to cut the constuction time, use less expensive fabric and market them in high volume. This means the quality has to go down. See "Lip Service". The other option is to move the construction facilities offshore to where labor costs are a tenth of what they are here in the First World. See "McKilts".

How on earth USA Kilts and Pittsburgh kilts market a self-made, high quality product for around $100 is beyond me. I can't imagine how on earth they're making a living at it. Do the math! Nobody is getting rich, here. I cannot conceive how Stillwater kilts produces a basic product that sells for under $50. They HAVE to be made offshore.


You can't have both...high quality and mainstream-low price. Sorry, no gorgeous 8 yard wool kilts going mainstream for $40 on sale at Macy's. MAC Newsome isn't putting his 4-yard box pleated kilts out there for $39.99, but until he does, a high quality kilt will never be "mainstream".

So I say.... IMHO... enjoy the kilt for what it is. Wear it in whatever tartan, plain twill, multicolored combination you like. Buy kilts from Bear and Rocky and Utilitkilts and Pittsburgh and Freedom...

....And Mac Newsome and Kinloch Andersen and Celtic Croft and your local kiltmaker and enjoy them for what they are and forget worrying about "mainstream".

[phil h]

very good post.
I for one have said it before, I don't want kilts for all.
I like being the center(re) of attention.

[Alan H]

If you want a tartan kilt from a Scottish weaver's wool, then do the basic math. The material retails for about $60 a yard. That means it wholesales for roughly half to two-thirds of that. Let's split the
difference between half and two-thirds and call it 60%.

OK, 60% of $60 a yard is $36 a yard. Put together a 4 yard "casual kilt" from that and you've got around $150 in materials. If it takes four hours of work to make a casual kilt...sewing and handwork, and
you pay a worker $15 an hour, then that's $60. Now we're up to $210 for just time and materials. Oops, don't forget the belts and buckles if you want a traditonally-closed kilt. That'll be about $15
wholesale. Velcro is cheaper. Utilitkilt snaps don't cost much, but it takes a while to set 'em. The place has to amortise the cost of their machines over 3-4 years so add another ten bucks per kilt. Then
there's rent for the space to build it....etc. etc.

The cost of making this kilt is probably around $250.

Normal retail markup on "regular" items is anywhere from 1.25 to 2x the cost of production, so this kilt would probably retail for $275-$400, which in fact is right about what they DO sell for. If anyone sold a kilt like this for less than $250 they'd be giving them away.

Let's make that exact same kilt out of poly-viscose. Instead of costing $60 a yard, retail it costs about $18 a yard. That means it wholesales for about $9 a yard. For a four-yard casual kilt that's $36.00 in materials instead of $150 in materials. Round it off to $40 to make the math easier. Building a PV tartan kilt is about as much labor as a wool one, so at $15 an hour, there's another $60. BTW, this assumes no benefits for the workers..no health insurance, retirement, etc. etc. Add in the buckles and leather...another $15. Amortization for the machines, rent, etc. etc... this kilt should cost about $115 in materials and labor. Therefore it should retail for
around $140-$200. In fact USA kilts sells their philabeg kilts for about $110, and Bear Kilts sells their 4-yard casual PV kilts for $150. In other words, they're not ripping anybody off, here.

Stillwater kilts sells tartan kilts for $75. That's their "standard" model. The only way they can do that is to use material that wholesales for about $3-$5 a yard and get them built by workers who are making $5-$7 an hour or less...meaning they're made offshore or they've whipped their production techniques into such shape that they can crank them out with less than two hours skilled labour per kilt.

It's not hard to see why a Utilitikilt costs $150. The Carhart-like canvas material probably wholesales for about $5 a yard. There are about 4 yards of material in them, so $20. The hardware is probably
another $10. They're probably paying their sewing team about $15.00 a an hour, but they're also paying them benefits like health insurance so make that $15.00 an hour $25.00 an hour. If it takes three hours to built a utilikilt, then we're talking about $75 labor costs. Add that up and the cost of making a commerical Utilikilt is about $105. So if
they charge $150, that's not unreasonable at all.

***The above posted on Rigged's SF Bay Area Kilt forum, and slighlty edited for X Marks***

What would a $40 casual kilt look like?
If it retails for $40, then it can't cost more than $30 to make, and that's the ABSOLUTE maximum. If the retailer can't make that as a bare minimum margin, they won't touch it. I know I wouldn't, and I have a bit of retail experience.

If there are 4 yards of material in this kilt, and the material wholesales for $2.50 a yard, then that's $10. That leaves you $20 to pay the seamstress/seamster to build the kilt.

Any of you guys/gals on XMarks who've built kilts think you can put one together for $20? What fabric can be bought wholesale in bulk for $2.50 a yard?

The only way to build a $40 retail-sales price kilt is to buy masses upon masses...thousands of yards of inexpensive material and have them built in third world countries where labour is under $2.00 an hour.

[kiltie as charged]

I have to agree with you! I for one don't have $800 in my sporran. I am contented with something that cost less but is well made.
The way I see it, that if more men are going to wear a kilt the prices should be reasonable.I would like to wear my tank more often but the kind of work that I do it would be ruined in a matter of seconds!

I would rather wear somthing that I would not worry about getting ruined
such as a UK or somthing made for working in.The same goes for pub crawling, as I see it A kilt is still a kilt no matter where it is made.It would depend on what or where you are going.

Lets face it, most people that we encounter day to day don't know the difference between a 8yd handmade kilt or one that your aunt fanny made for you at the kitchen table!

[The Wizard of BC]

Alan, I have to thank you for a very well thought out and worded post.
I have been in this business for a little over a year now and have managed to break even. But just.
The main differance between a small, one man shop like me, Bear, and Jeff, and some of the 'big guys' is that we do all of the work ourselves. That includes bookkeeping, answering the phone, sweeping the floor, and sewing kilts.
My kilts are made from between 6 1/2 and 8 1/4 yards of fabric. If it weren't for the pockets, I can make a kilt in a day. For a pair of side slash pockets or rear welt pockets, add 4 to 5 hours/pair. Cargo pockets take 2 hrs./pr. All told make it 2 to 3 days /kilt
Now, I'm not, and never expect, to get rich at this business. God, I wish I could make a kilt for $80.00. I wish I could get every man who wishes to wear a kilt, in one. But I can't, and never will, at the price I have to sell them to put food on the table.
I have had all kinds of offers to do as UK has and hire an outside shop to contract my sewing and turn out 1500 kilts a month. Principles keep me from becoming a sweatshop promoter. But as soon as a space opens up I will have my own storefront and will hire some young guy with as much passion for kilts as I have. Perhaps then I can get my wait list down to something acceptable.
Until then, Freedom Kilts will continue to make a quality kilt. Sell it at a modest profit. And back my product with my personal promise that each customer gets what he paid his hard earned money for.
I advertise my kilts as everyday wear. That's everday wear for those who wish to wear them, not mainstream for everyone in the world. I don't expect everyone to wear my kilts. I just want everyone who wears one to wear it for many years of pride.
Your post said what I couldn't. Thank you again.

[elijah]

We try and keep the price of our kilts down at King Kilts, but you get what you pay for in terms of fabric. We're charging $60 for our basic generic plaid kilts and $65 for our plain kilts. Each one takes my wife about 12 hours labor to completely hand sew, so with materials lets just say that on an average job she makes less than a minimum wage, but she likes doing the work from home so she doesn't complain.

Alan's original point is right on. The expense of kilts is going to limit the number who will buy them and that's not necessarily a bad thing. The idea that we have to mainstream everything is kind of a fallacious notion anyway. There've been a lot of stupid fashion statements a lot of people have followed.

[Miah]

This has to be one of the best threads I have read on here in a while (imho) I totaly agree. I am that guy that can't pay 200+ for an item to wrap around my **** that I can't even wear to work. I have 2 kilts a USA and a Bear, they are both great garments and I love them but the fast facts are, I can't wear kilts full time because of work and it is not economical to pay upwards of 200$ for an Item i won't get good use out of. I would love to have 5 or 6 Heavy weight "tanks"but I can't afford the impracticality of it.

With all that said more power to the people that can afford to wear kilts full time, and have a job that will allow it.

[herminator]

Elijah wrote:

Alan's original point is right on. The expense of kilts is going to limit the number who will buy them and that's not necessarily a bad thing. The idea that we have to mainstream everything is kind of a fallacious notion anyway. There've been a lot of stupid fashion statements a lot of people have followed

Right! I want the freedom to wear kilt and I want everybody to have the freedom to not wear kilt! Why should everybody wear my kind of clothing? Uniformity is not my thing!

And as to the price of a kilt: I fully understand the prices, I wouldn´t work for nothing eiter! But as I have family I simply cannot pay that much for what really is just a piece of clothing, so I am learning to make my own. This way I have only the cost of the materials and since I do not wear tartan I can always go for cheap sales! My kilts cost me no more than my last jeans. OTOH they cannot compare to what a skilled kiltmaker will produce, but then I like them, my wife is learning to like them and everybody I have spoken to at least recognised them as kilts!

[James]

Quite a fascinating subject, but are we being a bit too sensitive and so losing track?

Possibly to many, certainly myself a kilt is a specific garment-just as a Greek Fustanella or a Fijian's Sulu is a specific garment. A garment linked by form to a certain tribal/clan - ethnic grouping.

However the word kilt appears to have subsumed to itself certain garments that deviate considerably from the original: be it of form and or material. An example would be the Utilikilt.

At this point it gets nasty, I can see every good reason for a man wearing a Utilikilt-for whilst I do not have one, it appears a very practical and sensible garment. However should it be seen as a sensible man's skirt or a kilt?

If it is seen as a man's skirt, then it opens up the argument for other possibly cheaper materials and designs-albeit made for men and entirely distanced from any suggestion of cross dressing.

However if it is seen as a kilt, then all the arguments regarding cost, materials-the use of tartan and so on will persist.

Can I suggest that the time has come to bite the bullet, and consider accepting the fact that all too often what is termed a kilt, is in fact a masculine skirt. A form of dressing that is entirely logical, and good sense.

James

[bear]

Interesting thread.
There are a couple of glaring errors in your calculations that I'd like to mention.

You listed my price in Canadian ($150.00 CDN is $115.00 USD) and USA kilts ($110.00) in US dollars. Most of the clever lads here would catch that but just in case ...

It takes me a day to make a four yard kilt. I used to do two a day but as you've heard Jimmy tell you, my quality has gone way up since I started making kilts and that extra care takes time.

I'm not going to get into details of what I pay for fabric, labour, or any other aspect of my business, but most of the mistakes in calculations were balanced with opposing mistakes. (ex: too low fabric costs balanced by double wide fabric.)

I like the gist of the thread; you get what you pay for. The lowest cost casual kilts on the market today are from offshore factories. The only way to lower that cost is to find a sweatshop in an even more desperate part of the world.
Casual kilt quality comes with proper construction, good fabric, and custom fitting. There will never be a $50.00 quality casual kilt.