Where's the love..

[motorman4life]

Do not email the mods wanting the rules changed when they are posted.

Is it me, or does that statement seem unnecessarily dictatorial. I don't get it. This is clearly not a board of the kilt wearers, by the kilt wearers and for the kilt wearers, is it? Where's the love? Is this a knee-jerk response to perceived chaos and anarchy? I didn't see any bloodshed, Nelson.

Hey Nelson.. Mr. Liberty. I love your sig. But, do you know what liberty is?

lib·er·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-t) n. pl. lib·er·ties
1) The condition of being free from restriction or control.
2) The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
3) The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor. See Synonyms at freedom.
4) Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
5) A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or interference: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.

If you are for liberty and (as per #2 above) liberty is the right of free expresson, wouldn't the deleting of G-rated posts and unnecessary restriction of those expressing their thoughful opinion be against liberty? I didn't see anything wrong with the thread. Open communication and considered responses... what's wrong with that? It is not TMac's fault that Bear did not chose to respond to his post.

And, refusing to accept any input from the lowly minions.. nice touch.
Go ahead and delete this post in the name of liberty.

[Dreadbelly]

Is it me, or does that statement seem unnecessarily dictatorial. I don't get it. This is clearly not a board of the kilt wearers, by the kilt wearers and for the kilt wearers, is it? Where's the love? Is this a knee-jerk response to perceived chaos and anarchy? I didn't see any bloodshed, Nelson.

Hey Nelson.. Mr. Liberty. I love your sig. But, do you know what liberty is?

lib·er·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-t) n. pl. lib·er·ties
1) The condition of being free from restriction or control.
2) The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
3) The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor. See Synonyms at freedom.
4) Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
5) A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or interference: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.

If you are for liberty and (as per #2 above) liberty is the right of free expresson, wouldn't the deleting of G-rated posts and unnecessary restriction of those expressing their thoughful opinion be against liberty? I didn't see anything wrong with the thread. Open communication and considered responses... what's wrong with that? It is not TMac's fault that Bear did not chose to respond to his post.

And, refusing to accept any input from the lowly minions.. nice touch.
Go ahead and delete this post in the name of liberty.

**Sigh**

So it begins.

This isn't worth it. Nothing will be changed because of this. If anything, control will only be tightened to deal with perceived threats.

All this talk makes me sad.

[Doc Hudson]

Is it me, or does that statement seem unnecessarily dictatorial. I don't get it. This is clearly not a board of the kilt wearers, by the kilt wearers and for the kilt wearers, is it? Where's the love? Is this a knee-jerk response to perceived chaos and anarchy? I didn't see any bloodshed, Nelson.

Hey Nelson.. Mr. Liberty. I love your sig. But, do you know what liberty is?

lib·er·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-t) n. pl. lib·er·ties
1) The condition of being free from restriction or control.
2) The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
3) The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor. See Synonyms at freedom.
4) Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
5) A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or interference: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.

If you are for liberty and (as per #2 above) liberty is the right of free expresson, wouldn't the deleting of G-rated posts and unnecessary restriction of those expressing their thoughful opinion be against liberty? I didn't see anything wrong with the thread. Open communication and considered responses... what's wrong with that? It is not TMac's fault that Bear did not chose to respond to his post.

And, refusing to accept any input from the lowly minions.. nice touch.
Go ahead and delete this post in the name of liberty.

Now you are starting to understand my annoyance.

And Dr. Douglas is probably correct. When people in authority are accused of heavy-handedness, the hand almost invariably becomes heavier.

[Dreadbelly]

Now you are starting to understand my annoyance.

And Dr. Douglas is probably correct. When people in authority are accused of heavy-handedness, the hand almost invariably becomes heavier.

Yes. This creates a devide. An "Us vs Them."

I have been just dying to say something, it's like an itch for me. And, well, I have just left it alone. It would do me no good. It would either be deleted, ignored, get me banned, which would be horrible because I really do care about a lot of the people here and I would go nuts not being able to talk to them, or it would be totally ignored because people would be to afraid to get on the bandwagon out of fear of their own forum membership.

The only reason I have held my own tongue lately on stating my feelings is that my sense of friendship over-rides my self of defiance.

I don't want to rock the boat any more than I have to because the consequences would be unbearable. Late at night, or when the pain burns a little to bright for me to deal with, I turn to forums and communications online to take my mind off of things. It keeps me from turning to chemical dependancy, drinking, and taking painkillers.

[motorman4life]

I have been just dying to say something, it's like an itch for me. And, well, I have just left it alone. It would do me no good. It would either be deleted, ignored, get me banned, which would be horrible... because people would be to afraid to get on the bandwagon out of fear of their own forum membership.

That is my point. My hope is that pointing out the hypocrisy of claiming to be Pro Libertate (For Liberty) and taking such a heavy-handed approach may give pause.

Yes, Doc is right.. the usual reaction is the “iron fist” approach. But, I am hoping that someone that is truly "for liberty" might consider their response and act in a judicious and reasonable manner. There comes a time when you have to decide if your sig is a catchy/cool “sound bite” or something you take seriously and want to live by. Freedom is not an easy mantle to carry, particularly when you are in a position of power and control.

I love this board and the people here. I really appreciate the participation by various makers and enthusiasts. I don’t think Dreadbelly, Doc or I should have to hold our tongue out of fear of getting banned from the board for expressing our opinions in a thoughtful and appropriate manner.

I don’t want to see this become a brawl-board with chaos, flames and constant ranting. On the same token, it should be a place where everyone can communicate openly and give constructive criticism or on-topic feedback without fear of retaliation.

Freedom is merely a concept until it is exercised.

[Dreadbelly]

That is my point. My hope is that pointing out the hypocrisy of claiming to be Pro Libertate (For Liberty) and taking such a heavy-handed approach may give pause.

Yes, Doc is right.. the usual reaction is the “iron fist” approach. But, I am hoping that someone that is truly "for liberty" might consider their response and act in a judicious and reasonable manner. There comes a time when you have to decide if your sig is a catchy/cool “sound bite” or something you take seriously and want to live by. Freedom is not an easy mantle to carry, particularly when you are in a position of power and control.

I love this board and the people here. I really appreciate the participation by various makers and enthusiasts. I don’t think Dreadbelly, Doc or I should have to hold our tongue out of fear of getting banned from the board for expressing our opinions in a thoughtful and appropriate manner.

I don’t want to see this become a brawl-board with chaos, flames and constant ranting. On the same token, it should be a place where everyone can communicate openly and give constructive criticism or on-topic feedback without fear of retaliation.

Freedom is merely a concept until it is exercised.

In my best efforts to remain Swiss, I should point out that tweaking somebody's nose over a signature is, well, something of a personal attack. Taking somebody to task over a few words, no matter what level of truth, is kind of, well, stooping low. No offense meant. But there is a moral obligation here to keep our own motivations and intentions in check and make sure that we are doing the right thing, in the right way.

Is this really how we want to bring about change?

[motorman4life]

Taking somebody to task over a few words, no matter what level of truth, is kind of, well, stooping low.

I understand where you are coming from, Dread. And, if people here did not have to live in fear of getting banned or have their posts deleted for simply expressing their opinion, I really would not have made a peep.

I must admit, I was alarmed to see TMac’s thread deleted, but I truly became concerned when I saw Nelson’s response to Magnus. I am a huge proponent of freedom and I hate to see unnecessarily heavy-handed tactics being used by moderators. I moderate many groups and forums in various places on the web and as much as I may have been tempted to write what Nelson wrote, in situations far worse, I have not succumbed. To see him do so was, well, disappointing. Moreover, your subsequent response and honest admission that you were afraid to post openly on this board out of fear of heavy-handed retaliation has reinforced my opinion.

As for bringing about change.. I had thought things really seemed to be running fine. It seems pretty obvious that Nelson is brining about the changes here, not me. I do not see pointing out blatant hypocrisy as a personal attack. If you do, that is unfortunate.

As for “taking someone to task over a few words, no matter the level of truth..” stooping low? Dread, aren’t you taking me to task over a few words in your post? I see your response as constructive criticism.. not stooping low. I would hope you could grant me the same leeway.

Lastly, I believe my intentions and motivations are no different that yours. I want to see this board thrive and I want to ensure the same level of open communication and exchange of ideas that it has had in the past, regardless of ad revenue and personal relationships between moderators and kilt makers or advertisers. I would also like to think that all contributors here would be free to give input to moderators that it would be reviewed and considered. I understand this site is somewhat of a commercial enterrprise, but why have a review forum if people cannot comment on the reviews?

[KMacT]

Nelson the moderator wrote "Do not email the mods wanting the rules changed when they are posted."

Is it me, or does that statement seem unnecessarily dictatorial.

I understand where you are coming from (I'm generally quite open to discussion on pretty much any topic), but I do notice that one of the pre-existing rules (in place for at least as long as I've been a member here) is the following: "Don't bother complaining about the rules..."

So again, while it's not an approach that I would take, it is the first rule of he site and Nelson was only repeating it. We've all been given notice of this a long time ago.

I have felt free to comment on *proposed* rule changes, but if I can't live with the rules once they are announced, I'd probably just leave. Well, first I expect I'd send a PM to Hank expressing my concerns, but I wouldn't have any expectations of change after reading the "do not complain" rule.

Hey Nelson.. Mr. Liberty. I love your sig. But, do you know what liberty is? ...The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing

The problem I see with this approach is that it ignores the question whose liberty one is upholding. In a private forum the moderators also have the freedom to express themselves. They do so, at times, by enforcing rules of conduct. As has been said, this is Hank's house and he can govern it as he pleases. Hank (or the other moderators) are *free* to do so because they do know what liberty is.

Kevin

[Graham]

well said Kevin.

While I have had a couple of posts deleted (didn't miss them, I have plenty left), and I know I can sometimes take it personally, there is no escaping that this forum is well run and free of the abuses I've seen in other forums.

That "order" may come at a price, and I also am sure (as a former moderator in another forum) that moderators don't always get it right, they are human too, yet I think it may good to look at the positives of what we have here, instead of stirring up strife as, frankly Motorman, I think you are close to doing.

Let us worry more about the good of the community, than our personal "rights".
This is a place to talk about kilts, anything more is a bonus.

[Jerry]

I have had a few posts deleted in the past also. However when I thought about them, I felt, myself, that deleting them was the correct choice. When I first posted them I was probably under the infuence of a few too many.