Let's talk about Saffron

[Alan H]

I've done a bunch of reading, a lot of it on Matt's web site about the saffron-dyed garment, the leinte and it just never rings true with me. Saffron, while it is a very powerful dye, is the pollen of the crocus plant. This plant does not grow naturally in Ireland or Scotland. Thus it would have had to have been imported, probably from Spain.

Have you bought saffron recently?

Take a look... http://www.gourmetsleuth.com/saffron.htm

thirteen thousand stamens PER OUNCE.... It costs about $5 a gram, now in the 21st century.

http://www.gourmetsleuth.com/pDetail...s=1&price=4.95

Which is expensive, but not stunningly so.

OK, so here's what I think....check this out. The following links are all about the plant commonly known as "Heather", which of course grows rampant all over Scotland and Ireland. Note the references to the yellow dye made from Heather.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pfaf/cgi-bin/...ris&CAN=COMIND

http://www.treesforlife.org.uk/fores...k/heather.html

http://www.tartans.scotland.net/making_tartan/dyes.cfm


Notice also that ragwort and broom and other commonly available plants make yellow dyes, plants are all over the place in Sotland and Ireland.

http://www.rsc-ne-scotland.ac.uk/ie/...uction-191.htm

http://www.cne-siar.gov.uk/museum/plants.htm
So while it's common useage to refer to 'saffron" as the color of the bright yellow leinte's, I *Really* wonder if saffron was the source of that yellow color at all. it doesn't make much sense when other outrageously common plants that would have cost the local weaver absolutely nothing to harvest, yield aabsolutely wonderful yellows. I wonder if the term "saffron" wasn't first used by a visitor to the isles, who happened to associate the bright yellow color with what he was familiar with as yellow.....saffron.

So, what color does the yellow dye produced by heather impart to linen and wool?

http://www.reconstructinghistory.com...affrondye.html

In that article, the dye-lady used broom, mordanted with alum to create bright yellow linen and also a brownish-yellow wool. This is perfectly consistant with the traditional colors.

So in conclusion, it sure seems to me a *whole* lot more likely that the ancient Irish, and the Scots as well, used, broom, heather or ragwort to create their yellow dyes, and not the outrageously expensive saffron.


Now, on to another topic...I see numerous references to "heather tea" and also heather ale. Heather Ale?????

Has anybody ever tried this?

[Alan H]

Incidentally, there are 28.4 grams per ounce.

If saffron today, costs $4.95 per gram, then that means it's $140 an ounce....what did it cost in the 17th century, in ancient Eire? And a leinte is a BIG piece of material, you know?

[michael steinrok]

with nobility comes (hopefully)the ability to pay. But why? It's an ugly color akin to the yangtze river and the comings from the south end of a northbound dog! If you all like it more power to you. Just don't think I'm going to wear it because someone else is illadvised..End of rant.

Slainte

[flyv65]

It was my understanding that saffon was only the color name, not the source of the color. IIRC, there was a History Channel International special that delved into several possible sources of yellow dyes in Eire that could provide the shade commonly called saffron (not just vegetal, either).

Bryan...I think I saw it about two months ago...

[macwilkin]

Now, on to another topic...I see numerous references to "heather tea" and also heather ale. Heather Ale?????

Has anybody ever tried this?

Many times -- it's a guid beer:

http://www.heatherale.co.uk/

http://www.legendslimited.com/index.html

http://www.rampantscotland.com/know/...heatherale.htm

Robert Louis Stevenson evern wrote a poem about it:

http://www.rampantscotland.com/poetr...heatherale.htm

Cheers,

Todd

[Valencian Kilted]

But why? It's an ugly color akin to the yangtze river and the comings from the south end of a northbound dog!
Slainte

... what do you exactly mean??? :confused:

[prattw]

Incidentally, there are 28.4 grams per ounce.

If saffron today, costs $4.95 per gram, then that means it's $140 an ounce....what did it cost in the 17th century, in ancient Eire? And a leinte is a BIG piece of material, you know?

The thing is, saffron, the dye, is related to but not the same as the spice. When you have removed the stigmas, you are left with the rest of the flower, whch is the source of the dye. You can buy a packet of the dried flowers at ethnic grocery stores here in Las Vegas for a dollar or so. One packet will dye enough fabric for about 1 1/2 leintes. The resultant color, incidentally, is a nice canary yellow, as per Matt. (My shirt for wearing with my feiladh beagh for Renfaire was done that way.)

Saffron is actually a Crocus (_Crocus sativus_), It's native to the Mediterranean region, but in the US will grow from the Arid Southwest to the milder parts of interior Alaska. It does best in a climate with cool to mildly warm summers and mild winters, like the British Isles. It's not too picky, though, my wife grows it successfully here in the Mohave. Actually picking the stimas is a pain, however. Of course, manual labor came cheaper back then, and you don't have to recover the spice before using the flower for dyestuff.

Will Pratt

[Andrew Breecher]

Keep in mind that the saffron dye must be cheap, since it's traditionally what Buddhist monks (of certain orders, anyway) have dyed their robes with for centuries - and they have a vow of poverty, and can only wear clothes which have been given to them. Obviously they aren't using the most expensive spice in the world to dye their robes that nice golden colour.

As for heather in beer, I've used it myself for a scotch ale, and it was wonderful. It's long been used in Scottish gruit beers, before hops were common (hops are a German/Czech introduction, relatively recent in beer history).

Andrew.

[Blu (Ontario)]

Keep in mind that the saffron dye must be cheap, since it's traditionally what Buddhist monks (of certain orders, anyway) have dyed their robes with for centuries - and they have a vow of poverty, and can only wear clothes which have been given to them...

Maybe they were poor 'cuz they spent all their money on saffron!

[Alan H]

PrattW...the dye isn't made from the stamens?

Well, that changes things, then. But I STILL bet that the local weavers used local dyes to get their yellows, and that means broom or heather of ragwort.