A really tough question for the kilt makers

[Dreadbelly]

About sizes.

Ok, due to some recent concerns about my weight I gave my self a once over with a measuring tape to see where some weight might be hiding, and I came up with a question somehow...

Ok. So, you have your standard kilt measurements. Waist, hips, drop, rise, etc.

Now your hip measurement is one thing, and it determines how your kilt hangs.

My question. And I will use my self as an example. Both of my thighs measure in at or around 30 inches. And I am somewhat bowlegged due to leg injuries and what not.

Now, if mid thigh measurement expands beyond your hip measurement, doesn't this make the kilt fit poorly or hang funny? I know with my USAK casual, (Which I love dearly actually) it hangs terribly. The two side pleats seperating the front and the back of the kilt remain bellowed out and well, unpleated. Does having two 30 inch thighs crammed in to a kilt come out to about 60 inches of measured space being taken up? Especially if your knees bow out beyond your hips? Is there a way to measure a kilt and correct for this effect?

Does any of this make sense?

[MacWage]

The main measurement would be the overall measurement in what would be the hanging portion of the kilt. The flaring of the pleats CAN be made to adjust for the difference, but it would take some planning.
Let me explain why (unless I am wrong and bull headed in this matter):
The 60 inch measurement is only valid for legs on plants, as the inner thigh portions are not relevant for a kilt, while the gap between the mid front and mid rear thighs is VERY relevant for a kilt, as it would also be affected by any bowleggedness.
I figure the relavant measurement would be 15 inches per leg, plus the front and rear apron and pleat gaps. The total may be 60 inches still, but it may not. Also, at least for me, I would also like to know the relative proportion of that measurement, as it may affect the flaring of the pleats to compensate for size difference. If the hip/butt measurement is 55 and the mid thigh measurement is 60, it would CERTAINLY affect the hang of the pleats.

The pre-milled kilts and patterned ones would not have such compensation built in. As for the USA Kilts, I'm sure Rocky could make it work, but I'll have to let him speak for himself.

The above is my first impulse answer, I'll have to do some thinking and figuring to see if I want to adjust it any.

[Dreadbelly]

Well, if it helps, 46 inch inch waist (which is reading 44 inches today) and 50 inch hips.

I am built like God threw some barrels together.

[The Wizard of BC]

Dread,

Do an additional measurement for me please.

Just like you measured for your waist and hip take another around your thighs at the widest part. Do it with your legs comfortable apart as they need to be while standing straight. Don't look down while doing this, have someone else do it for you.

This will give us some more info to give you an answer to your question.

[Dreadbelly]

Wife just did it. 54 to 56 inches. 54 at the top of the knee, 56 mid thigh.

[Dreadbelly]

Two pictures. I hope these help. This is my USAK casual, but it should be noted, ALL of my kilts do this, including my two stillwaters. The side pleat billows out, the front apron puckers over, and it billows out so badly that the first few pleats just behind the side pleat actually fall over and hang backwards. Folded over and hanging down over the billowed out part. Can you see what I am trying to say? Stillwaters even do it. My heavyweight isn't so bad, but the lighter weight Irish National is terrible... About six pleats or so in the back actually fold over themselves to the left and you can see the inside section of the pleat hanging on the outside. The other side of the kilt, the right side, it does this as well. It never hangs right. It always puckers over, curls around, and makes the rear pleats hanging next to it curl over and hang off to the side. The inside aprons are bad too, always slipping off my thigh, sliding to the middle, and then slipping between my legs where it bangs up against me, rubs between my thighs, and causes the outer apron to hang in ways God never intended. On my Irish National Stillwater, I can't even pull the inner apron over to hang on my hipbone... It hangs almost perfectly aligned with my inner thigh. Which causes no end of difficulty. Not so sure if I could snap a picture of that though.

I think I just discovered something new, at least to me. I had never before really thought about how size below the hips could effect out a kilt hangs.

[The Wizard of BC]

Dread,

The pics are small but from what I can see there seems to be a couple of issues.

1) The hip of the kilt seems to be too small.
2) The fell is in the wrong place. On you I think the fell needs to be much lower.
3) You seem to be one of those guys that should try wearing your kilts up at mid or full traditional rise. That way the aprons would hang vertically from your front.
4) If you really want to wear your kilt at low rise you should have about 3 -3 1/3" slope built into the waist. Can you see how the stripe at the hip rides up in the rear? You can also see it at the hem. Yours is significantly higher in the rear where it should be completly horizontal.

Rocky is a very good kiltmaker. It is obvious from the picture that the kilt is made correctly, --for someone of differant proportions --- .

Let's give Rocky a chance to chime in here 'cause that is one of his. But I really think having your kiltmaker take your measurements in person would make all the differance in the world.

[Dreadbelly]

Click the pics to make them larger.

This was my first kilt, a casual. I do wear it higher. It slides down. I pull it up, it slides down. For the photo, I wore it right where it tends to slide down to. It is a 48/48.

I do wear my stillwaters in the traditional place, up near my ribs. And I still get the pleat problems.

I have no kilt maker to take my measurements in person.

I am learning something here, so this is a good thing.

[RockyR]

Hey Dread...

The problem is that the 2 measurements we need are the waist and the hips (hips are USUALLY the largest part below the waist). In your case, the hips are not the widest part... where your thighs bow and are the widest is the measurement we need for the kilt to hang properly. As Steve mentioned above, we'd need you to take the measurement at the widest point around your thighs and that would be the hip measurement we'd make the kilt to. Also, we'd probably try to make the pleats a little deeper... that might help as well.

1) The hip of the kilt seems to be too small.

Addressed above

2) The fell is in the wrong place. On you I think the fell needs to be much lower.

Incorrect. The fell IS the correct length. The "floating front apron" is not sewn down more than 3 inches on ANY of our casuals for a reason... there is no attachment at the hip on the right side of the apron, so sewing the apron down to the "regular fell" length of the rest of the kilt would cause the apron to be pulled to the left when standing or sitting.

3) You seem to be one of those guys that should try wearing your kilts up at mid or full traditional rise. That way the aprons would hang vertically from your front.

I'd agree with that statement, but we'd still need the "widest measurement" around his thighs.

4) If you really want to wear your kilt at low rise you should have about 3 -3 1/3" slope built into the waist. Can you see how the stripe at the hip rides up in the rear? You can also see it at the hem. Yours is significantly higher in the rear where it should be completly horizontal.

The problem is that tartan kilts don't have a "beer gut cut". The lines of the tartan would make any attempt at a beer gut cut look "amateur-ish" and even if pulled off successfully, would draw even MORE attention to the wearer's belly. The only way to address that issue is to wear a kilt at the traditional waist (1 - 2 inches above naval)

Rocky is a very good kiltmaker. It is obvious from the picture that the kilt is made correctly, --for someone of differant proportions --- .

Let's give Rocky a chance to chime in here 'cause that is one of his. But I really think having your kiltmaker take your measurements in person would make all the differance in the world.

I agree that the kilt does not fit that well. Dread... next time you order a kilt (from any place... not just from us), a quick conversation with the maker could probably clear this up... The way that most men are measured for kilts is not the way you will need to measure. If you ever find yourself in this neck 'o the woods, stop by and we'd GLALDY measure you up and write them down for you for next time you want to order a kilt from anyone!

I hope these answers clear some things up and don't sound too "defensive".

[Dreadbelly]

Rocky, could it be done with a casual do you think? Because I do love wearing them for the summer. I only ask because a casual is only about 4 yards, and you mention deeper pleats and what not and the whole hip size increase.

If not, a simi traditional I guess would be the way to go for all future PV kilt purchases.

Many thanks to everybody that has, and will, chime in on this issue. I have learned something valuable, as I am sure everybody else has... Measuring the 'hip' measurement at the point where somebody's bowlegged thighs cow out will make for a much better kilt fit... Probably also applies to some of my fellow gentleman of substance who still may have a narrowish waist in comparasion to the rest of their frame.

Oh, and Rocky, this was by no means a slight on your skills, or the casual... It is actually starting to wear out in a few places from so much wear and use... And words do not express the feelings of love I have for it, especially on those somewhat warm Southern days when it is 110 degrees outside, 125 or more with the heat index and the sunlight reflecting off of all those mirrored buildings.

I've learned a lot from the kilt makers here, like how to measure your hips sitting down (which brings mine from 48 to 50 inches) and all kinds of neat tricks to have a better fitting kilt. (We should make a FAQ) And now there is a new trick to learn which I am sure will help folks other than my self.

Thanks again.