kilt in 1396?!

[Nick the DSM]

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kvenjb/madmona...obert3_bio.htm


if you read into it like toward the end i guess it will say, wearing a short kilt or sumtin of the like. what do you think? true or false. ive been told to read alot but dont believe everything i read. i know it seems like heresy against mr. newsome and others documents on the history of the kilt, but i jsut found it not created it.

nick

[Sardious]

sounds more one piece like a tunic but pleated skirt like garments are not uncommon in the old world

[pdcorlis]

Please read some of Matt Newsome's very informative articles found here.

http://www.albanach.org/kilt.html

[Nick the DSM]

Please read some of Matt Newsome's very informative articles found here.

http://www.albanach.org/kilt.html

i have and thought it was very informative.

[beloitpiper]

A notorious tournament was held in 1396 on the North Inch of Perth as an entertainment before the King and court and vast crowds. Thirty men of the Clan Chattan fought against thirty men of another clan. They were clothed in a short kilt and armed with sword, dirk, axe, crossbow and three arrows each. To the music of the pipes they slaughtered each other until after a long time only a dozen survived - all badly wounded. As a result of the acceptance of the outcome of this judicial combat and the slaughter of so many local champions in it, the following years the central highlands were more peaceful.

I'd be tempted to say "wrong", not only because this disagrees with every other piece of historical information I've heard, but also because this sounds slightly Romanticized, and that's a sign that things have been...embellished.

[Macman]

I'd be tempted to say "wrong", not only because this disagrees with every other piece of historical information I've heard, but also because this sounds slightly Romanticized, and that's a sign that things have been...embellished.

I agree. Also, what I've read about the introduction of the bagpipes to Scotland leans towards a time subsequent to the North Inch combat.

[SergeantFirstClass]

Some things to point out. The idea of a kilt then, though not documented is plausible. There is Roman documentatuion of the migrating Celts (Keltoi by the Greeks) wearing a type of tartan material, to include descriptions of this from Ceasar during his exploits in Gaul (as we all know from Gallic, which is Roman for Celt). This is my cited source:

Herm, Gerhard, The Celts: The People Who Came Out of the Darkness. New York, N.Y., St Martin’s Press, 1977.

He used the primary sources of Ceasar, a Roman named Livy and a number of others. Good reading by the way....He only mentioned the Tartan as a cloak though clasped with a brooch.

[Nick the DSM]

umm, oops. i guess i made a mistake, not that i beleived but concerned.

i guess this thread is done, lets eat it!

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Some things to point out. The idea of a kilt then, though not documented is plausible. There is Roman documentatuion of the migrating Celts (Keltoi by the Greeks) wearing a type of tartan material, to include descriptions of this from Ceasar during his exploits in Gaul (as we all know from Gallic, which is Roman for Celt). This is my cited source:

Herm, Gerhard, The Celts: The People Who Came Out of the Darkness. New York, N.Y., St Martin’s Press, 1977.

He used the primary sources of Ceasar, a Roman named Livy and a number of others. Good reading by the way....He only mentioned the Tartan as a cloak though clasped with a brooch.

Tartan is a type of pattern woven in cloth. The kilt is a specific type of garment that is usually (though not exclusively) made from tartan cloth. The two are not the same. Julius Ceasar mentioning tartan cloth worn by the Gauls (in modern day France) does allow one to assume anything about the kilt. Tartan has been well documented archaeologically as being produced some 5000 years ago. But that has nothing to do with the kilt, which can only be documented, in any form, to just over 400 years ago. Let's not confuse the two.

[SergeantFirstClass]

Tartan is a type of pattern woven in cloth. The kilt is a specific type of garment that is usually (though not exclusively) made from tartan cloth. The two are not the same. Julius Ceasar mentioning tartan cloth worn by the Gauls (in modern day France) does allow one to assume anything about the kilt. Tartan has been well documented archaeologically as being produced some 5000 years ago. But that has nothing to do with the kilt, which can only be documented, in any form, to just over 400 years ago. Let's not confuse the two.

This is why I said plausible. From every account I've found, nothing notes a kilt in the form we currently know it. I'm only throwing additional info out there. If we're looking at only 400 years ago, I wonder what would have lead them to start wearing it or even the idea to create it? By the way, Livy was around the 4th century B.C. when the Celts crossed the Po river and were raiding the Etruscan villages.