Need some clan help and clarification

[Phogfan86]

My sister who is becoming interested in our family heritage attended a ren fest and spoke with a gent working for a vendor that sold a few stock kilts and through whom you could choose and tartan, get measured and order a kilt.

She chatted him up for awhile about clans and mentioned that we may have had a relative or two who were members of Clan Gunn. She said the guy kind of turned his nose up and said something about how "we" don't consider Gunn "one of the ancient clans" or "old clans." She didn't remember his exact words, but he seemed a little sanctimonious.

I'd never heard of anything like this before, but I'm still a noob. Can anyone venture a guess about what he was saying?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

She said the guy kind of turned his nose up and said something about how "we" don't consider Gunn "one of the ancient clans" or "old clans." She didn't remember his exact words, but he seemed a little sanctimonious.

I'd never heard of anything like this before, but I'm still a noob. Can anyone venture a guess about what he was saying?

Well, unless the question of the Gunn chiefship has been recently settled, the fact that they don't have a chief would have little bearing on their antiquity-- There have been Gunns in the north of Scotland since the end of the 12th century.

As far as I know the present commander of the clan (as recognized by Lord Lyon) is Iain Gunn of Banniskirk, possible representative of the chiefly line established by George Gunn in the 15th century.

It is possible that your sister mis-heard the speaker, who may have been referencing a lack of Gunn tartan in "old colours".

Then again, he just may have been an ignorant birk! In which case he should be taken out and ...

[gilmore]

It may be that the vendor was refering to the fact that Clan Gunn has no chief, and without a chief there is no clan, strictly speaking. It could be said to be a broken clan. There is a commander of the clan, and there are three claimants to the chiefship, the last I heard, though according to the gossip that was relayed to me, the man with the best claim was an American who wasn't interested in it. This was told to me a few years ago, and I pass it on to you for what it may be worth now.

Something else that the vendor may have been refering to is that the clan Gunn associations are among the worst in fishing for members, aided and abetted by the tartan merchants. It is claimed that some very common names such as Brown, Robinson, Nelson and others are septs of the Gunn clan. Most of the bearers of these names have no Scots ancestry whatsoever. (I do not dispute that some few bearing these names may have had ancestors with traditional connection to the Gunns.) And of course tartan merchants rarely discourage unknowing newbies from spending money with them.

I have posted elsewhere in another thread how it has been shown through both demographic research as well as Y chromosome DNA testing that most who bear these common names have no historical, genetic or genealogical connection to the Gunn clan. If you have trouble finding the post using the search feature, PM me and I will locate it for you.

[Sketraw]

It may be that the vendor was refering to the fact that Clan Gunn has no chief, and without a chief there is no clan, strictly speaking. It could be said to be a broken clan. There is a commander of the clan, and there are three claimants to the chiefship, the last I heard, though according to the gossip that was relayed to me, the man with the best claim was an American who wasn't interested in it. This was told to me a few years ago, and I pass it on to you for what it may be worth now.

Something else that the vendor may have been refering to is that the clan Gunn associations are among the worst in fishing for members, aided and abetted by the tartan merchants. It is claimed that some very common names such as Brown, Robinson, Nelson and others are septs of the Gunn clan. Most of the bearers of these names have no Scots ancestry whatsoever. (I do not dispute that some few bearing these names may have had ancestors with traditional connection to the Gunns.) And of course tartan merchants rarely discourage unknowing newbies from spending money with them.

I have posted elsewhere in another thread how it has been shown through both demographic research as well as Y chromosome DNA testing that most who bear these common names have no historical, genetic or genealogical connection to the Gunn clan. If you have trouble finding the post using the search feature, PM me and I will locate it for you.

Most names associated with any clan (Sept) will not necessarily have blood ties and in a lot of cases these names don't even have an historical attachment and is based on Victorian romanticism perpetrated in the main by the historian 'The Venerable Bede, William Forbes Skene'.

[Downix]

It may be that the vendor was refering to the fact that Clan Gunn has no chief, and without a chief there is no clan, strictly speaking.

By that measure, Stewart of Appin would also be turned the nose up at, being that our Chiefdom is handled by another Stewart line entirely.

[gilmore]

By that measure, Stewart of Appin would also be turned the nose up at, being that our Chiefdom is handled by another Stewart line entirely.

It's not a matter of turning up noses, but of facts, of historical events and their consequences.

From what little I know of Stewart of Appin, the chiefship is not "handled by" the Stewarts of Ardsheal but was inherited by them in the late 18th century when the Appin family became extinct. There is therefore, a chief, even one born with the same surname.

(It not only happens from time to time that the chiefship of a clan is inherited by a cadet branch, but sometimes that branch may have at the time another surname. When that occurs, the new chief changes his surname to that of the clan.)

[Downix]

It's not a matter of turning up noses, but of facts, of historical events and their consequences.

From what little I know of Stewart of Appin, the chiefship is not "handled by" the Stewarts of Ardsheal but was inherited by them in the late 18th century when the Appin family became extinct. There is therefore, a chief, even one born with the same surname.

(It not only happens from time to time that the chiefship of a clan is inherited by a cadet branch, but sometimes that branch may have at the time another surname. When that occurs, the new chief changes his surname to that of the clan.)

You know I really do need to get the lineage from my aunt sometime....

[Riverkilt]

I can almost guess who that vendor was.....sad attitude...one would think he'd check that attitude since the Gunn Clan in the U.S. is nothing to mess with.

My Gunne ancestor goes back to 1675....that's plenty old for me.



One of my favorite tartans, here in USA Kilts semi-trad

Ron