Splits and measurements!?!?

[Gilvray]

I'm confused.... oh so confused. I'd be grateful if someone could take pity and help me out....

I've finally finished Barbs book (TAoKM) and cant procrasinate anylonger - I've set myself the target of getting the kilt done for Christmas (NO PRESSURE!). I'm hoping to make up time once I get to the stiching of the pleats - and for now just try to 1) motivate myself during the preparation and 2) not get ahead of myself and make a major mistake. (I also recon I'll mistakes anyway but would like to start out knowing I'm pointing in the right direction!)

So I need some help figuring out my splits. (Certainly not too proud not to ask for help!!!) My professionally made kilt is trying to guide me, as is the book, but I'm just not getting it.

I'm a comfortable 34" waist and 42" hips. 20" from waist to top of my knee cap.

So I've done the following splits:

Waist Split 1: Apron 17" Pleats 17"
Waist Split 2: Apron 18" Pleats 16"
Waist Split 3: Apron 19" Pleats 15"

Hips Split 1: Apron 21" Pleats 21"
Hips Split 2: Apron 20" Pleats 22"
Hips Split 3: Apron 19" Pleats 23"

So understanding that a little more apron is better at the waist and a bit more pleat is better at the hips splits 3 seem to work. (?) But then I'm thinking that the apron is 19" waist to hip - which doesnt seem right!? (no shaping?)

Should I be making sure there is a bit more "out" at the hips to provide the 'A' line shape? In which case should it be 3 and 1?

My professionally made kilts apron (and fitted to me (yes a couple of years/pounds ago)) measures 18" at the waist and 20" at the hips and 22" at the selvedge. With a 23" length (inc 2" above waist). I was thinking it would be sensible to keep close to those measurements as thats a nice fitting kilt (see avatar!)

Am I way of track or not far off just with no idea?

Thanks everyone!!! Comments gratefully recieved.

[Moosedog]

Gilvray:

You're almost there. You pick one split for the waist and another split for the hips...in your case, as you suggest more in the pleats at the hip is flattering, while more in the apron than the pleats in the waist is so.

So one split that might work for you is waist: 18" apron 16" pleats, and hips: 20" apron and 22" pleats.

That way you apron will widen two inches (one on each side) between the waist and hip, with a continued gentle curve from there to the hem (Barb does a great job describing this part.) The rest of the taper, 6" will be made through the pleats. This sounds about right. You could also go a bit, say 1/2 to one inch either way. Just keep in mind how much taper you will be building into the apron and keep it manageable.

Does this help? Working from a kilt you enjoy the fit of, like you are, is a great way to keep on track.

Moosedog

[ChattanCat]

I'm confused.... oh so confused. I'd be grateful if someone could take pity and help me out.....

Happy to help.

I've finally finished Barbs book (TAoKM) and cant procrasinate anylonger - I've set myself the target of getting the kilt done for Christmas (NO PRESSURE!).

Are you using 13 oz or 16 oz worsted wool? It is your first kilt and it is better to do a practice kilt with some inexpensive wool material.

I'm hoping to make up time once I get to the stiching of the pleats - and for now just try to 1) motivate myself during the preparation and 2) not get ahead of myself and make a major mistake. (I also recon I'll mistakes anyway but would like to start out knowing I'm pointing in the right direction!)

So I need some help figuring out my splits. (Certainly not too proud not to ask for help!!!) My professionally made kilt is trying to guide me, as is the book, but I'm just not getting it.

I'm a comfortable 34" waist and 42" hips. 20" from waist to top of my knee cap.

So I've done the following splits:

Waist Split 1: Apron 17" Pleats 17"
Waist Split 2: Apron 18" Pleats 16"
Waist Split 3: Apron 19" Pleats 15"

Hips Split 1: Apron 21" Pleats 21"
Hips Split 2: Apron 20" Pleats 22"
Hips Split 3: Apron 19" Pleats 23"

I'd go with Waist and Hip splits 2 because it is a middle of the road approach. The biggest split you can do is 18.25". The difference between the apron waist and the pleated waist should be about 2". Your split 3 has a hip difference greater than 1".

So understanding that a little more apron is better at the waist and a bit more pleat is better at the hips splits 3 seem to work. (?) But then I'm thinking that the apron is 19" waist to hip - which doesnt seem right!? (no shaping?)

Should I be making sure there is a bit more "out" at the hips to provide the 'A' line shape? In which case should it be 3 and 1?

My professionally made kilts apron (and fitted to me (yes a couple of years/pounds ago)) measures 18" at the waist and 20" at the hips and 22" at the selvedge. With a 23" length (inc 2" above waist). I was thinking it would be sensible to keep close to those measurements as thats a nice fitting kilt (see avatar!)

Am I way of track or not far off just with no idea?

Thanks everyone!!! Comments gratefully recieved.

[The Wizard of BC]

I would choose No 2 of each of your split choices. This makes the apron 18" wide at the waist and 20" wide at the hips. That is a good taper to the apron.
These splits also result in a 6" overall taper in the pleats which is about average. 22" tapered down to 16". If you choose to to have the Kilt have 22 1" wide pleats at the Hip they would taper down to just under 3/4" at the waist (.7272"). Also very nice.

I do however wonder about your measurement of the drop of the Kilt. You state that you are 20" from waist to top of knee cap. This seems a little short to me unless you are under 5' 6". You then state that the Kilt that fits you well is 23" drop. Your Drop should be measured from the center of the top strap down to the hem. There is then a 2" rise above the strap.
The top strap of the Kilt should cinch into your natural waist which is just below your ribcage at the side.

You then state that the well fitting Kilt is 20" at the Hips and 22" at the Hem. This should not be. The pleats should drop parallel and vertical from the Hip to the Hem. The measurements should be exactly the same.

It seems you may be getting number bound. I know, I was there once myself. And I'm an engineer and used to working with measurements.

My suggestion would be to take just one measurement at a time. Or one element of the Kilt at a time and concentrate on understanding how that fits in the whole. Then move on to the second number or element.

Remember the KISS principle. Keep It Simple Stupid!!!

Also remember that until you are ready to cut away the inside of the pleats nothing is hurt or damaged. You can rip it all out, press out the creases and start all over.

It's a lot more art than it is rocket science. So don't sweat it.

[Dixiecat]

What a coincidence, I was going to post to ask opinions on the splits for a kilt too. So, if Gilvray doesn't mind, I'm going to hijack his thread.

Waist: 30", Hips: 41"

Waist Splits:
#1: Apron 15" Pleats 15"
#2: Apron 15.5" Pleats 14.5"
#3: Apron 16" Pleats 14"

Hip Splits:
#1: Apron 20" Pleats 21"
#2: Apron 19.5" Pleats 21.5"
#3: Apron 19" Pleats 22"

This person has a slightly rounded upper tummy and a slightly flat behind. I'm pretty well sold on both #2's, but I always 2nd guess myself and of course still learning. Anyway, suggestions welcome!

[Barb T]

Waist: 30", Hips: 41"

Waist Splits:
#1: Apron 15" Pleats 15"
#2: Apron 15.5" Pleats 14.5"
#3: Apron 16" Pleats 14"

Hip Splits:
#1: Apron 20" Pleats 21"
#2: Apron 19.5" Pleats 21.5"
#3: Apron 19" Pleats 22"

This person has a slightly rounded upper tummy and a slightly flat behind. I'm pretty well sold on both #2's, but I always 2nd guess myself and of course still learning. Anyway, suggestions welcome!

Again (see immediately previous post), I wouldn't ever use a 2" hip differential, particularly if someone has a slightly flat behind. So, here's what I would do (starting with adding 1/2" to both measurements):

waist: apron 17; pleats 13 1/2

hips: apron 20 1/4; pleats 21 1/4

This person's measurements have a large waist/hip differential, and you'll need to do something to make the apron edge taper reasonable. 4" is actually a lot of taper to manage - although it can be done, it's a full 2" on each side. By choosing 17 at the waist (instead of 16), you decrease the taper to just over 3". If you didn't want to snug the kilt in to the small of the back quite so much, you could use 16 1/2 and 14 at the waist, but I wouldn't go much less than that in the apron.

[Dixiecat]

Thanks Barb. I saw your previous post and had worked out new splits, but hadn't gone quite so far as 17/13.5 on my waist splits. I DO want to snug it in on the back waist as the back waist is quite small. This person is me and my back waist is always trouble with any garment.

Maybe a sticky could be created with the intention of posting splits and getting opinions?

[Barb T]

And here's my take. First, add 1/2" to both measurements, so that you have a little expansion room. You'll eventually put the buckles on at your actual measurements, so it will fit fine.

So, starting with 34 1/2 and 42 1/2, here's what I'd do:

waist: apron 18 1/2; pleats 16

hips: apron 20 3/4; pleats 21 3/4

The apron edge taper is a hair over an inch on each side, which is definitely do-able. The 2 1/2" difference between the apron and the pleats at the waist will snug the kilt into the small of your back.

You have a nice trim waist, and you want a full inch more in the pleats at the hips than in the apron. But you definitely do **not** want more than that. If you put more than an inch extra into the pleats at the hips, you'll have issues with "the wave" across the back.

So one split that might work for you is waist: 18" apron 16" pleats, and hips: 20" apron and 22" pleats.

A little more on this. I have never made a kilt with a 2" differential at the hips. And the only time I would ever go with more than 1" is if the person had a teeny little waist and a chubby little butt. That would be the case below, which is me in my kilt. I used a 1 1/2" differential so that the kilt would go around my more than ample behind:





But I've never met a guy who needs that much differential - guys just aren't shaped like that (and, in truth, kilts aren't meant for people of my shape, and I wouldn't wear one if I weren't a piper). But, back to splts, I commonly make kilts for guys with *no* differential. If someone has a belly, I use the same measurement for the apron and the pleats at the hips.

Hope this helps!


Oh - also - don't do this by trying to measure an existing kilt. Many kiltmakers add some to the actual measurements when they're laying a kilt out - and, in fact, if you follow the directions in The Art of Kiltmaking, you'll see that the center stripe in the apron isn't actually dead center, because you bump the right hand apron edge out an inch to make sure that the fringe covers the underapron. So measuring a kilt doesn't help unless you know exactly what adjustments the kiltmaker has made.

And post pics when you get done!

[Alan H]

Great thread.

And yup, Mayniac, there are no splits in the X-Kilt, 'cause the apron is nowhere near full width.

[Pleater]

A thought just struck me this morning - they do from time to time.

With my lighter and posher kilts I wear a liner, which is the same shape as a kilt but without the pleats. It doesn't get in the way as it is several inches shorter.

All it is is a length of material to match the waist of my kilts - so it wraps over at the front, and it has darts into shape it into the waist.

If you get a piece of material longer than you think you will need, mark the centre back, then wrap it around your hips over a shirt or whatever you wear when kilted, and see how much the back needs to be taken in to shape it.

I start an inch or so either side of the centre back and make a pair of half inch darts - feel where the fabric is no longer slack so you can judge how long to make them.

Fold the fabric and sew quarter of an inch from the fold tapering to nothing where you sew off the edge of the material.

Make another dart where you want the edges of the line of pleats to be. Try half an inch there too, then put in a couple more evenly spaced between the ones at the back and the side.

It is most likely that you will find that to get a good approximation to your shape you will need to make some darts longer than others, and you might need to make some darts wider than others - you can always make the dart wider, so start small and work up.

This will involve a lot of standing in front of a long mirror and twisting and turning, or getting someone to assist, but eventually you should have something that is fitted to you.

It is advisable to have the waist tightish, but with a bit of ease in the hips, because they change shape if you sit or lean, so using this to judge how to sew the fell might result in something too tight, The waist, however, if belted or reinforced and buckled is going to be a closer fit.

You can now pin the waist and see where you would best have the edges of the apron, and you can even shape the edges for the best coverage. A straight edge can sometimes look as though it is narrower at the hem than the waist, so having the apron two inches wider at the bottom that then top actually makes it look straight.

Now you can draw on the liner where the edge of the apron lies, measure the difference between the top and bottom edges, and generally use it to check just how much around you are at those points, and how much narrowing is coing to make the pleats fit into the small of your back comfortably.

You can also see how much more or less apron you need for it to look right, if a two inch taper is right for you, and so on.

If you use some cheap but fairly firmly woven material - or even start out with some old sheet and repeat the process of making until you have something you are happy with. You might want to fold the edge over once and sew along it to stop it stretching with some materials.

This is quite a common thing to do when doing made to measure garments, and the result is called a sloper.

If you hold it in place with a couple of safety pins you can see if it results in a level horizontal waist or not when the back is vertical - theoretically the front should be straight up and down too.

There are lots of books which give fitting instructions that usually end up in charity shops as few people wear tailored dresses and skirts these days, but they can be useful to see how to remedy such things as creases across the front or back or uneven waistlines.

Not only that, but you can then make a liner to protect your kilts if you need one.

Anne the Pleater