How Long to Make a Tradition

[davedove]

Something that has come up many times on this forum is the issue of the tradition of tartan and the kilt. Many speak of the association of tartan with families and the traditions behind it. Others will immediately chime in about how the association of a specific tartan to a clan is only a couple of centuries old, so it really doesn't mean much.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I do have a question for those who discount the "short" traditions. The traditions of the US Marine Corps are about the same age as the association of tartans and families. Do the traditions of the Corps not mean anything because they are only a couple of centuries old? And what about the beliefs inherent in the US system of government? That's also about the same age; are they not valid because they're so new?

Now, I do agree that we shouldn't perpetuate the myth that ancient Scots climbed out of the primordial ooze wearing tartan, and there do seem to be some that believe that. But at the same time we shouldn't discount someone's traditions because they "haven't been around long enough." Just because someone's traditions aren't ancient doesn't mean they aren't valid.

If it's not your tradition, no one should say you have to follow it. But at the same time, don't ridicule those who do.

[DWFII]

Something that has come up many times on this forum is the issue of the tradition of tartan and the kilt. Many speak of the association of tartan with families and the traditions behind it. Others will immediately chime in about how the association of a specific tartan to a clan is only a couple of centuries old, so it really doesn't mean much.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I do have a question for those who discount the "short" traditions. The traditions of the US Marine Corps are about the same age as the association of tartans and families. Do the traditions of the Corps not mean anything because they are only a couple of centuries old? And what about the beliefs inherent in the US system of government? That's also about the same age; are they not valid because they're so new?

Now, I do agree that we shouldn't perpetuate the myth that ancient Scots climbed out of the primordial ooze wearing tartan, and there do seem to be some that believe that. But at the same time we shouldn't discount someone's traditions because they "haven't been around long enough." Just because someone's traditions aren't ancient doesn't mean they aren't valid.

If it's not your tradition, no one should say you have to follow it. But at the same time, don't ridicule those who do.

Coming at this from a "logic only" direction, I would have to say (my opinion only) that for a tradition to become a "tradition" it has to be established in one generation and passed down through enough generations that the originating generation is no longer alive.

And it must continue to be honoured virtually unchanged and passed down to the next generation of its own accord.

So...if a generation is 7 years (I read that somewhere...correct me if I'm wrong) then I would say that it would require roughly seven generations to see the passing of the originating generation...or about fifty years.

Of course, if a style or convention has been passed down unchanged for say, 20 generations, it becomes something more than a tradition even though we call still call it a "tradition."

[Twa_Corbies]

To quote the Beatles...."It's all in your head."

[gilmore]

...
So...if a generation is 7 years (I read that somewhere...correct me if I'm wrong) ...

Generations in genealogy are calculated at 27 years for men, a bit less for women, but most people doing it in their head use 25 years, or 4 per century. It varies with culture and society. I have seem 32 years attributed to some.

[gilmore]

Hoariness of tradition deepens on where you are. In Scotland it appears to be close to 200 years. In the American South, maybe 100 years. In California, 15 minutes, or anything done twice, whichever comes first.

[The Wizard of BC]

The subject of Tradition takes up a sizable part of any Anthropology or History course taught today.

Taken from the Latin, Tradition comes from Traditio which is usually interpreted to mean the handing over or passing on.

Most courses define it as a belief or custom passed from one generation to the next as "This is the way it is done", or "This is the way we do it", or "This is the way we have done it in the past".

As this passing on or handing down is usually done orally it is subject to the slight changes oral communication is and has always been prone to.

There is no time frame accepted to define a Tradition. Christmas Traditions are usually used to illustrate this. The artist who originally drew the Santa Claus for the Coca Cola Company was still alive when his concept of what Santa Claus looked like was accepted almost universally.
Christmas Traditions are and come under the broad heading of "Invented Traditions". In truth, we made them up. It was nice to pass on to our children the things we liked to do and made us feel good. So many Christmas Traditions had little or nothing to do with "Truth".

Another example of "Invented Tradition" is the Neo-Druid. From Historical fact we know almost nothing of the Druid. Just a few Latin sentences from Roman letters and military reports.

Another is speaking of Celts as if they were a Country such as the Countries of France or England. In fact the Celts were the people who spoke one of the Celtic languages. So it is not correct to lump all who currently speak a Celtic language, or had ancestors who did so, as Celts just as it would be incorrect to refer to all people who speak the French Language as French because not all French speakers live in the Country of France.

So, if I'm in France and someone calls out "Hey, English dude" I'll probably know who they are talking about even though I am not English. I am Canadian.

So, when someone refers to themselves as Celtic it is common to mistake their meaning. Are they saying "I speak one of the Celtic Languages"? Or are they saying "I can trace my ancestors to someone who spoke one of the Celtic Languages"? Or are they saying "I'm am a citizen of one of the Celtic Nations"? If the latter, they would probably be mis-speaking.

When we speak of Tradition here on this forum is gets even more confusing.

As the word Tradition means some custom or belief that has been passed on or handed down it also must imply that that custom or belief may have changed.
There is an entire section of this forum where you can look at pictures of how people wore the Kilt in days past. is the manner of wearing the Kilt exactly the same and unchanged today as there was then. No. So some things have changed.

Would it be proper to call some one who dresses in the manner of the 1830's, in the Kilt with no set pleating to his Kilt, wearing three or four different Tartans at the same time, with a Basket Hilt sword over his back, a Dirk on his belt, and a brace of Pistols loaded and cocked, Castellated Hose, and a three foot long hair Sporran with 17 Tassels "Traditional"? Yes. Would it be wrong to also call him anachronistic or wearing a costume? No.
But it would also be correct to call someone who dresses like a Pipe Major with Tall feather hat, Cross Belts, 26' long Pipers Sash and Spats "Traditional". But would you go to the Pub with your friends dressed like that just because "It's Traditional"? I think not.
How about the recently posted picture of Prince Charles wearing a Tweed Jacket and Brown Sporran with Black Shoes? Is he less "Traditional"? I dare you to say so.

So, what I'm saying is that we should exercise some caution with the word "Tradition". Saying "I dress in the Tradition of 1830 Court Dress" and saying "I dress in the Tradition of 1951", are two totally different Traditions of the wearing of the Kilt and both are correct.

[Jock Scot]

The Wizard of BC.

Actually Steve, good point! Prince Charles wearing mixed brown sporran with black shoes is very traditional highland attire. In this neat and tidy, labeled, matching obsessed, compartmentalized, modern world that we live in, is far from traditional.In the highlands here, we are not that bothered about all this matching up nonsense. Most wear what they have, just like they always have, in fact, just like Prince Charles.

[Peter C.]

You make a good point, especially as today is St Patricks Day.

The first St Patricks day parade was held in Boston in 1761, and the first one in New York was 1762 when the Irish soldiers of the English army marched through the streets with their music. The first St Patricks Day parade was held in Dublin Ireland in 1931 but I don't think anyone would say that it was not an Irish tradition just because they had only been doing it for 80 years, or that they couldn't do it because it was an American tradition.

So I'm with you.

Peter

[macwilkin]

You make a good point, especially as today is St Patricks Day.

The first St Patricks day parade was held in Boston in 1761, and the first one in New York was 1762 when the Irish soldiers of the English army marched through the streets with their music. The first St Patricks Day parade was held in Dublin Ireland in 1931 but I don't think anyone would say that it was not an Irish tradition just because they had only been doing it for 80 years, or that they couldn't do it because it was an American tradition.

So I'm with you.

Peter

Actually, Boston claims the "first" St. Patrick's Day parade in 1737, in competition with the New York parade in 1761.

Regards,

Todd

[Jock Scot]

Just like a journey starts with the first step,traditions start with the first idea that "something" is worth preserving.