Which tartan is correct and which is woven?

[JRB]

This one is for the tartan scholars on the board. Looking at info in the Vestiarium Scoticum regarding the clan Rose tartan I notice that the thread count derived from the plate is:
G4 R48 B10 R8 B2 R4 B2 R24 W4 and looks like this...


But the thread count derived from the text is:
G8 R64 P18 Cr12 P4 Cr6 P4 Cr24 W6 and looks like this...


According to the Vestiarium Scoticum wiki article (originally from “The Setts”, p.98), “the plate gives a poor representation of the reds & purple.” So, which version of the tartan is considered to be correct and woven today as the Rose red tartan? And why does the book even have two different versions? Lastly, why is xxxx version considered the correct version?

[Paul]

Rose:



Rose of Kilravock:

[davidlpope]

I'm not sure on the specifics of this tartan, but I'd encourage you to check out "Scotland's Forged Tartans" by D.C. Stewart and J.C. Thompson. It's a study of how the bogus tartans dreamed up by the Sobieskis came into existence. The other book that you might like is "The Setts of the Scottish Tartans" by D.C. Stewart. Some errors crept into tartans as threadcounts were published. One good example if the Culloden tartan. Not only are the colors in the currently woven version different than the original colors, but the threadcount (particularly the width of certain stripes) is off. I'm not sure how each mill determines the threadcount it will use, but hopefully someone will chime in.

Cordially,

David

[ForresterModern]

Paul,

Am I missing something or isn't there supposed to be a white stripe in the Rose Red?

[The Wizard of BC]

Here is what the Scottish Tartans Authority has to say about the Rose Tartan. International Tartan Index #845 (As Illustrated above)


The text of the Vestiarium gives the colours as purple and crimson but in the plate they appear as mid blue and scarlet. The Lord Lyon records crimson as red. D.C. Stewart regarded this sett as a 'dress' tartan. ('The Setts..' 1950) James Logan records a 'hunting' version. ('The Scottish Gael' 1831). The following is throught to have come from a letter to Wilsons circa 1822 from a merchant: "Please send me a piece of Rose tartan, and if there isn't one, please send me a different pattern and call it Rose." In other words the clan tartan system just developed. The castle of Kilravock which has been the residence of the Roses for over five centuries is still the seat of the chief. In Lord Lyon's Public Register of all Arms & Bearings in Scotland 36/8 dated 10th November 1946. Count LG1 R14 B3 R2 1/2 B1 R1 B1 R 5 1/2 W1. It is reported that "By the time King George IV came to Edinburgh In 1822, everyone was wanting a clan tartan. One merchant wrote: "Please send me a piece of Rose tartan, and if there isn't one, please send me a different pattern and call it Rose."

Most scolars today recognize that the Vesitarium Scotiumwas invented by the brothers Sobieski and that it is false.
That said it is one of the first listings of Tartans.

There is also the Rose Hunting Tartan, ITI #1226
The Rose of Kilravock Tartan, ITI #3166 (As shown above) A Personal Tartan
And the Rose White Dress Tartan ITI # 1227

[Paul]

Paul,

Am I missing something or isn't there supposed to be a white stripe in the Rose Red?

First one is the red ancient from the count I got. There is a varient of it with a white stripe depending on your source of the count. It's quite confusing.
Rose modern appears to be the same as the Rose ancient - only with black replacing the blue.

EDIT - nice find Wizard!

[Colonel MacNeal]

So a Rose is not a Rose is not a Rose.

[JRB]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm quite aware that the Vestiarium Scoticum was found to be a fraudulent book, but many current clan tartans are derived or taken directly from what is in that book. Therefore, in some backwards way it became canon. One thing I still don't get is why is the thread count for the official Rose tartan is taken from the plate and not from the text. Personally, I really prefer the tartan described in the text.

[Morris at Heathfield]

One thing to keep in mind is that, when the Vestiarium Scoticum was published, thread counts were not in use. The VS certainly didn't contain them. At best, it described stripes as "wide", "greater", "lesser", etc. Any thread count derived from the text—or even an illustration—of the VS is at best a guess.

As for why the VS has two versions of the Rose tartan, we may never know exactly, but I think color printing was something of a black art at the time. Mistakes such as these have been known to happen, even today. However, most of the plates match the text quite well.

Why is the "official" Rose tartan taken from the color plate rather than the text? Probably because color plates make much more of an impression on the mind than mere words. If you want to know what the Rose tartan looks like, are you going to find the description in pseudo-archaic Scots and try to imagine what it looks like, or are you going to flip to the color plate at the end of the book?

Which version is woven today? It could very well depend on the mill. However, in the case of the Rose tartan, I believe it is universally woven in red, blue, white, and green, with no crimson.

Which version is correct and why? I suppose you could argue whether the forged text is more or less correct than the accompanying color plate, but I don't think it much matters. The weavers will weave whatever they want to weave anyway. If you disagree, you can always order a custom run. In addition, the thread count of the Rose tartan has been registered with Lord Lyon. This means that your clan chief or one of his predecessors has decided what the Rose tartan ought to be. And that's as official as a tartan can be.

Why did the chief register that particular sett? I think the only answer you can get, short of asking him yourself, is because he's the clan chief, and it's his right to do so.

Now I have a question: Does the official Lord Lyon thread count for the Rose tartan actually contain half-threads? I've never heard of such a thing.

[JRB]

I like your answer. It makes a lot of sense. I still like the Rose tartan as described in the text but I know the "true" Rose is the one in the plate.