"Saffron" colour of Irish kilts?

[OC Richard]

We've all seen the "saffron" Irish kilts. They're worn by the pipers in the Irish Guards and Royal Irish Rangers:





and by many civilians, pipers and nonpipers alike:



So with this all in mind, it was very interesting to read what HF McClintock has to say on the subject in Old Irish & Highland Dress:

"Saffron is a dye made from the dried stigmas of the autumn crocus (crocus sativa). The name "saffron" is from the Arabic, but the dye was known to the Greeks as Krokos whence the Latin Crocus and the Irish croch.

Though little heard of nowadays, it enjoyed a considerable reputation among the ancients and in the Middle Ages, primarily as a dye, but also as a drug, a spice, and a perfume. It was formerly much grown in England, its cultivators being called "crokers" (whence that surname) and its cultivation was kept up at Saffron Walden in Essex till as late as about 1768. In Ireland, Castle Saffron, in Co Cork is said to take its name from the quantity formerly grown there, and a pamphlet advocating its cultivation in Ireland was published by the Dublin Society in 1732...

From all this, it is beyond question both that the Irish in old days knew of saffron and that the country was capable of producing as much of it as the people cared to grow...

From experiments specially made by a competitent dyer, it was found to give a pure yellow without any tinge of brown, varying from primrose to a full buttercup shade, thus confirming exactly the colour of the tunic (leine) in De Heere's paintings...

Saffron is therefore a perfectly definite dye which was much more familiarly known in the sixteenth century than it is now; and when we find sixteenth-century writers repeatedly calling the colour of the Irish shirts "saffron" in three languages (English saffron, Latin crocotus, Irish croich), and never calling it anything else, we need very strong evidence to show that the dye was not saffron or, at any rate, a dye which produced the colour of saffron. Most of these writers indeed say explicitly that the shirts, both in Ireland and Scotland, were dyed with saffron...

I do not know what evidence there is in support of the brown shade now called "saffron" but in face of the above facts, I think it would have to be very strong."

[MrShoe]

The "brown shade" is a representation of the color of the stigma. When used as a dye 'it is an unstable colouring agent; the imparted vibrant orange-yellow hue quickly fades to a pale and creamy yellow. The saffron stamens, even in minute amounts, yield a luminous yellow-orange colour. Increasing the amount of saffron applied will turn the fabric's imparted colour an increasingly rich shade of red.

So it could be the unfaded, originally hue that a heavy fabric like wool would be. Lighter/thinner materials may have faded quickly or not have taken to deeper hues.

Look at it as either a heavily dyed, unfaded saffron or as an ancient weathered material. None the less, this is the color that Pearse and the few Irish Nationalists selected to represent the revival back in 1900. With there being little documented history to support the Irish Kilt, the "brown shade" seems to be consistent with those that were early in its existence.

[O'Callaghan]

The "brown shade" is a representation of the color of the stigma. When used as a dye 'it is an unstable colouring agent; the imparted vibrant orange-yellow hue quickly fades to a pale and creamy yellow. The saffron stamens, even in minute amounts, yield a luminous yellow-orange colour. Increasing the amount of saffron applied will turn the fabric's imparted colour an increasingly rich shade of red.

So it could be the unfaded, originally hue that a heavy fabric like wool would be. Lighter/thinner materials may have faded quickly or not have taken to deeper hues.

Look at it as either a heavily dyed, unfaded saffron or as an ancient weathered material. None the less, this is the color that Pearse and the few Irish Nationalists selected to represent the revival back in 1900. With there being little documented history to support the Irish Kilt, the "brown shade" seems to be consistent with those that were early in its existence.

You may be right, of course, but my understanding was that saffron turns linen yellow because linen has a very poor takeup of dyes, hence the reason for using saffron on the Irish leine in the first place, i.e. other dyes would not colour the linen fabric. I always understood that some sort of orange/brown shade was the normal result obtained in dyeing most other fabrics with saffron. Hence, for example, a Tibetan monk's saffron robes, which I think are cotton (??), turn out a relatively similar shade to a woollen saffron kilt.

[OC Richard]

a Tibetan monk's saffron robes, which I think are cotton (??), turn out a relatively similar shade to a woollen saffron kilt.

I see monks in their robes very often where I work. I don't know where they're from, or what fabric their robes are, or what they dye them with, but they're not the orangish brown of the modern "saffron" Irish kilt, but rather a pale yellow or yellow-orange.

People have mentioned the dying of wool. I don't think there's any old references to the wool brat or mantle being dyed saffron; it's the leine or shirt that's saffron.

Of course Irish revivalists saw the bit of the leine which hangs below the ionar or jacket and mistook it for a kilt. Likewise the pleated skirts of early jackets are often thought to be kilts by these wishful thinkers.

[MrShoe]

People have mentioned the dying of wool. I don't think there's any old references to the wool brat or mantle being dyed saffron; it's the leine or shirt that's saffron.

But when it came to a kilt, they were of course to be wool.
I have not come across anything that would say that brats or mantles were not dyed in saffron.

leine[/I] which hangs below the ionar or jacket and mistook it for a kilt. Likewise the pleated skirts of early jackets are often thought to be kilts by these wishful thinkers.

We won't get into the whole discussion of Irish and kilts, that has been done many times. None the less, there has been 110 years of "brownish" saffron kilts being know as the "Irish tradition".

[O'Callaghan]

But when it came to a kilt, they were of course to be wool.

That was exactly my meaning. Anyone dyeing a woolen kilt with saffron would necessarily have wound up with the shade that we now have.

I have not come across anything that would say that brats or mantles were not dyed in saffron.

Indeed not, although apparently the only quote on the subject says that brats were 'striped'. Some take that as tartan, which may or may not have been right. There is certainly much earlier evidence of tartan being known to celts. OTOH, neither did it say striped vertically and horizontally, so they may not have been tartan either.

We won't get into the whole discussion of Irish and kilts, that has been done many times. None the less, there has been 110 years of "brownish" saffron kilts being know as the "Irish tradition".

As of 1900, the discussion seems to have centred on adopting something for Irish national dress that would actually get worn, not on accurately reproducing something ancient.

Nevertheless, there are some reports of the British Army adopting the saffron kilt for Irish pipers at some point during the previous century. Whether the British Army thought that the ancient Irish had worn kilts is not something we know or are likely to find out. What we do know for sure, though, is that the kilt could be combined with standard military uniform on the upper half of the body, whereas that isn't true of the leine.

[MrShoe]

Nobody has yet to put forth any evidence which conflicts with his conclusion, that the brown-orange colour used in modern Irish kilts has no historical basis

On the contrary, I think the saffron dye has been established as used on historical Irish garments. The dye effect on different fabric is understood. Wool will soak in much more color than the lighter/thinner lien fabric would have. If the Pearce had selected a kilt that was yellow, to resemble the leine, it would have not been dyed by saffron. Then we would be hearing that the "Irish Kilt" color has no historical basis because it is not a representation of wool dyed in saffron.

[macwilkin]

On the contrary, I think the saffron dye has been established as used on historical Irish garments. The dye effect on different fabric is understood. Wool will soak in much more color than the lighter/thinner lien fabric would have. If the Pearce had selected a kilt that was yellow, to resemble the leine, it would have not been dyed by saffron. Then we would be hearing that the "Irish Kilt" color has no historical basis because it is not a representation of wool dyed in saffron.

Pearse freely admitted in a letter in 1900 that his adoption of the kilt over trews (which historical examples for did exist) was not historically accurate, so I would not say he is the best source to making such a point on. It would be interesting to see what HF McClintock has to say about saffron.

T.

[MrShoe]

T.

Guess that I didn't make clear what I was saying.
I was not saying that Pearse chose the "Irish Kilt" because it is "Historical Irish" dress in 1900. I think that has been gone over and over and over and....Nor was I indicating that "brownish saffron" was "Historical Irish" in 1900.

However, it has been over 110 years since the introduction of that "brownish saffron" as an "Irish Kilt". At this point in time, 2010, can it now be said that the "Irish Kilt" in "brownish saffron" is historical? How long does something have to be around to be considered "historical"?

And whatever your thoughts on Pearse are I still stand by my earlier comment of.

Originally Posted by MrShoe
If Pearce had selected a kilt that was yellow, to resemble the leine, it would have not been dyed by saffron. Then we would be hearing that the "Irish Kilt" color has no historical basis because it is not a representation of wool dyed in saffron.

[macwilkin]

T.

Guess that I didn't make clear what I was saying.
I was not saying that Pearse chose the "Irish Kilt" because it is "Historical Irish" dress in 1900. I think that has been gone over and over and over and....Nor was I indicating that "brownish saffron" was "Historical Irish" in 1900.

However, it has been over 110 years since the introduction of that "brownish saffron" as an "Irish Kilt". At this point in time, 2010, can it now be said that the "Irish Kilt" in "brownish saffron" is historical? How long does something have to be around to be considered "historical"?

And whatever your thoughts on Pearse are I still stand by my earlier comment of.

And you're not getting my point: I would like to see what reputable scholar such as McClintock or Kass McGann have to say about what is the correct color for ancient Irish dress, and that given Pearse's self-admitted inaccuracy, he may not be the most reliable source in this debate.

As far as the "original" color goes, I can't speak to that. The saffron kilt certainly has a historical pedigree among the British Army's Irish regiments & the Irish Armed Forces.

T.